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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Telegraph: MoJ to ban transwomen (male to female) from women's estate - links with specific details

135 replies

ResisterRex · 26/02/2023 09:27

KPSS has provided an accessible link to the Telegraph story (see their tweet) and say they will comment on more detail tomorrow. Here's part of the Telegraph story:

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/02/26/transgender-prisoners-convicted-violence-banned-womens-jails/

"The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) is toughening its stance, meaning that not only transgender women convicted of sexual assaults but also those jailed for violence will no longer be able to be held in mainstream women’s prisons.
Violent offences will include murder, attempted murder, harming a child, assault with intent to cause serious harm or with injury, endangering life, and harassment.
The new rules will also cover all transgender women with male genitalia and will apply regardless of whether transgender prisoners have a gender recognition certificate.
The MoJ said exemptions would only be made in exceptional cases and would also have to be <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/Iqojr/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/06/trans-prisoners-will-not-housed-women/" rel="nofollow" target="blank">signed off by ministerss."

Here's the KPSS short thread:

twitter.com/noxyinxxprisons/status/1629768643780255744?s=46&t=p4GrD7xZK4xup2YXGSOk7w

"This is an incredible achievement & is testimony to @MoJGovUK, @DominicRaab listening.
The new policy is out tomorrow. It covers prisons & approved premises, with separate guidance to follow for Youth Custody Services"

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 27/02/2023 13:48

It's about unfettered access and total compliance, as far as I can see.

LexMitior · 27/02/2023 13:59

It's not "UK Law". Changes are being made in England and Wales. This policy look defensible to me and on challenge it should be fine. Which means it can be tightened further and I expect it will be.

There is no advantage now to any politician advocating for greater rights for trans prisoners in the women's estate, at least in England and Wales.

Scotland has its own system. It's far behind and on the basis of the quality decision making there and the slightly pathetic oppositional "we can't possibly do what England does" then the problems will persist. If people are voting for the SNP as it is it will not change.

Law is about argument- otherwise lawyers would not have jobs. The SNP have a particular interpretation and since they are getting huge majorities why would they change? It works for them.

SinnerBoy · 27/02/2023 14:46

LexMitior · Today 13:59

This policy look defensible to me and on challenge it should be fine. Which means it can be tightened further and I expect it will be.

That's what I was thinking and hoping, in that they've gone for the "low hanging fruit," which no sane person could defend. They should be able to chip away at the rest of it, slowly and steadily, but I don't think that it'll be rapid.

TheBiologyStupid · 27/02/2023 16:56

ResisterRex · 27/02/2023 12:08

Sex Matters have posted on searches on prison, which is a sobering read:

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/searching-for-a-simple-answer/

A sobering read indeed, but an excellent piece. Thanks.

ScrollingLeaves · 27/02/2023 22:39

LexMitior · Today 13:59
This policy look defensible to me and on challenge it should be fine

@LexMitior, I was wondering about whether this policy will work because of what Dr Michael Foran said here at Question 27 at the Parliamentary committeee on January 23rd
committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/12639/pdf/

Q26
Chair: Can I just finish with Lord Falconer? This could be a yes or no:
would it be helpful if there were a definition of sex in the Equality Act?

Dr Foran: There already is one.

Chair: There is an understanding of it. There is not a specific definition.

Dr Foran: Sex is if you are a man or a woman, and then the definition of man is a male of any age, and the definition of a woman is a female of any age. They have the definition. What they do not have is clarity.

Chair: The Haldane judgment interpreted that differently.

Dr Foran: Yes, it did. The Haldane—

Chair: Following the Haldane judgment, would it be helpful if that were
revisited?

Dr Foran: Absolutely. The issue with the Haldane judgment as it arises for all the purposes that we are dealing with here is that up until that point, we were really not sure whether or not sex in the Equality Act, as modified by a GRA, first, does modify the Equality Act for the purposes of the claimant, somebody who has a gender recognition certificate, whether they would be classed as male or female for the purposes of a direct discrimination claim. The Haldane judgment goes further than that because it says, effectively, that the definition of sex in the entire Act becomes legal sex. That means that single sex spaces become single legal sex spaces, and what it then means is your justification for exclusion will hinge partially upon whether or not the person is of the characteristic legally that that space is. The test is the same. It is still a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, but whether or not you are legally the same person of a space or a service that is set up for that legal category, not biological category, will be relevant for determining whether or not exclusion is proportionate. The proportionality—

Q27
Chair: Lord Falconer, do you want to comment on that?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Michael has made it incredibly complicated. The Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill does not change the basis on which you make a determination on whether or not—

Dr Foran: No, it changes whether or not you can sue. The policy arguments will not be changed. You could introduce a policy that bans all males from female prisons if you want, but you could be sued for that. You could be sued for gender recognition discrimination. The question about whether or not you have a gender recognition certificate changes the nature of that suit that you make from an indirect discrimination claim to a direct discrimination claim, subject to the same justification test. Is it a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim? If you think a court will possibly come to a conclusion that the exclusion of this legal woman who is biologically male and that there is a less onerous way to achieve the legitimate aim of providing security then the policy will be struck down as unlawful. If you want to ensure with absolute certainty that no rapist makes it into a women’s jail, you need a blanket ban, and blanket bans can be struck down by courts. You need to legislate to have that ban in place. Policy documents, guidance, will not do it because the legislative framework is as it is and it is hooked on to a proportionality test.

LexMitior · 27/02/2023 23:06

@ScrollingLeaves yes in part that is it.

certainly a proportionality test! But it's how that test is applied.

The Government has decided that statistically, when it looks into it's prison population, and then looks at the percentage who are trans and sex offenders or violent to women that there is enough of a pattern for exceptional circumstances to almost never apply in practice. It has inverted what happened in Scotland and places risk assessment, btw, because of the harm these offenders represent to women in particular which has been objectively determined beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury which got them locked away in the first place.

That is legitimate. And defensible.

ScrollingLeaves · 28/02/2023 00:05

So, ^LexMitior* · Today 23:06
it would not mean what he says here, a blanket ban that can be struck down?
It would not be a policy document that would ‘not do it?’

Or will this be actual legislation like he mentions?

If you want to ensure with absolute certainty that no rapist makes it into a women’s jail, you need a blanket ban, and blanket bans can be struck down by courts. You need to legislate to have that ban in place. Policy documents, guidance, will not do it because the legislative framework is as it is and it is hooked on to a proportionality test.

LexMitior · 28/02/2023 07:37

It's true that legislation is a stronger option than a policy document in judicial review terms, but that is about it. If the government can justify it, it will be defensible. I think they will be able to do that.

You could legislate, but that would take time. So if you wanted to make a rapid change this is the way to do it.

It's a bit academic to say "but legislation would be discriminatory". It might be, or might not, depending on the form. That's where the Dr and I would disagree.

ResisterRex · 28/02/2023 08:14

From a politician's perspective, losing such a case wouldn't be the worst outcome. It would mean the need to legislate is clear as day.

From a Tory politician's perspective, it means being able to definitively hang this on Labour era legislation.

From a Labour perspective, it means either defending that law (which won't go down well with the public) or concocting some narrative about how it was a mistake/things are different now/distance distance reverse reverse.

Meanwhile women are the losers and our public protection framework continues to crack and split.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 28/02/2023 12:31

Thank you both for answering.

Anyway, to help this new
position along, please would anyone who has not done so sign the Sex-Matters petition to Parliament to update the Equality Act - to make clear that the characteristic “sex” is biological and not sex as modified by a Gender Recognition Certificate - that can be found on the petition site on Mumsnet, or at Sex-Matters.

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