Telegraph: MoJ to ban transwomen (male to female) from women's estate - links with specific details

[ResisterRex]

KPSS has provided an accessible link to the Telegraph story (see their tweet) and say they will comment on more detail tomorrow. Here's part of the Telegraph story:

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/02/26/transgender-prisoners-convicted-violence-banned-womens-jails/

"The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) is toughening its stance, meaning that not only transgender women convicted of sexual assaults but also those jailed for violence will no longer be able to be held in mainstream women’s prisons.
Violent offences will include murder, attempted murder, harming a child, assault with intent to cause serious harm or with injury, endangering life, and harassment.
The new rules will also cover all transgender women with male genitalia and will apply regardless of whether transgender prisoners have a gender recognition certificate.
The MoJ said exemptions would only be made in exceptional cases and would also have to be <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/Iqojr/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/06/trans-prisoners-will-not-housed-women/" rel="nofollow" target="blank">signed off by ministerss."

Here's the KPSS short thread:

twitter.com/noxyinxxprisons/status/1629768643780255744?s=46&t=p4GrD7xZK4xup2YXGSOk7w

"This is an incredible achievement & is testimony to @MoJGovUK, @DominicRaab listening.
The new policy is out tomorrow. It covers prisons & approved premises, with separate guidance to follow for Youth Custody Services"

This is a huge achievement and I hope Dr Coleman is justifiably proud of what she's achieved at KPSS.

But yes, I'm sure more women will be assaulted, become pregnant and then they'll revise the guidelines again. But this is a huge step in the right direction.

Great news. Thanks for sharing.

Sadly, more women will need to be harmed before the law finally excludes all males. But this is a move in the right direction.

It's appalling that women were harmed before sense returned.

Anyone with half a brain could predict the outcome of putting males in female prisons. Shame on all the cowards that allowed this to happen.

This is good news. There has been a craven attitude to the risk of being sued on a human rights perspective which is misogynistic- institutionalized by the MOJ.

nilsmousehammer · Today 10:32

There will be already a legal team behind every male prisoner in the female estate, supported vigorously by rich political lobby groups (government funded) who will kick off massively and put a lot of pressure on.

Yes, I can certainly see that, from tomorrow, there will be an awful lot of screeching and wailing about it.

Glad to see 'TW with male genitalia' getting into the vernacular, let's hope the phrase is picked up by GC journalists who have this far been muffled by IPSO

Good to hear

NotRightNowNo · Today 11:41

Glad to see 'TW with male genitalia' getting into the vernacular, let's hope the phrase is picked up by GC journalists who have this far been muffled by IPSO

Yes, hopefully, it could become more common, allowing more people to pick up on the reality of it all. AGP seems to have gone quiet, however, after being used in the Telegraph, last month. The more light shining on the fact that most are nothing more than men acting, the better.

"The new rules will also cover all transgender women with male genitalia and will apply regardless of whether transgender prisoners have a gender recognition certificate."

How about all males?

A male with his dick cut off could still be a threat.

Yep.

let’s let them test this sensible-and-hard-to-object-to policy out with a legal case rather than give them the heart-string-tugging wiggle-room of the mythical paediatric transitioner in for fencing luxury ladies perfumes.

The public have been trained into feeling sorry for males with genderfeelz in prisons via Laverne Cox in Orange is the New Black and Annie Wallace in Hollyoaks.

'Isla' really did us a favour with those pink leggings

Doesn’t that still leave female guards being forced into a position where they’re obliged to search males in the female estate?

There may not be so many, after this change in rules takes effect, but there shouldn’t be any. The men in for fraud, or any other non-violent offences, shouldn’t be able to game the system either.

So pleased that the govt are moving on this at last. Guessing that Labour politicians will be piping up in defence of these becocked 'women' soon though plus Squealer will pipe up shouting about transphobia. But change is afoot thank god.

The new rules will also cover all transgender women with male genitalia and will apply regardless of whether transgender prisoners have a gender recognition certificate.
From the OP ^

Not males with intact genitalia, which is a start.
Also, if the prison service is implementing new rules that clearly state that even men with a GRC are not women then it should, theoretically, be possible to have the few remaining post op men in the female estate searched by male officers?

(of course, I would prefer no male officers in the female estate either but that’s a big tangent/rabbit hole and this thread deserves to stay on topic).

I realise that I am often the optimistic Pollyanna of FWR tho, so KPSS should definitely be seeking to have the policy re: searches clarified as part of these new approach.

Do you think they’ll say much?

He seems intent on saying as little as possible. Or did you mean Rayner?

I think this is a reasonable place to start. It might become clearer over time whether it is adequate or needs more refinement. I do wonder if they are thinking of exceptional cases where there are things like DSDs - so things like XY people born completely insensitive to testosterone, who to me clearly don't belong in a male prison. Maybe they'd fall under another rule, I'm not sure?

The MOJ have expressed it more clearly than the Telegraph managed to:

*Question: What will happen as a result of these new changes?
As a result of the new policy, transgender women who are in future sentenced to custody and

have male genitalia

OR

who have been convicted of sexual offences
will not serve their sentences in the general women’s estate unless there are exceptional circumstances.

Question: Does that mean transgender women currently in the women’s estate will be moved into male prisons?

In relation to transgender women currently in the women’s estate, there will be a thorough assessment of individuals – both the risks to them and any risks they pose to others – before any move is considered. Transgender women who cannot be held safely in either the male or female estate can be held in a specialist unit.*

Although I note the caveat “in the GENERAL female estate” which, I assume, gives them some wiggle room on segregation within the female estate. So possibly still female guards.

Possibly some grandfather clausing, and yes, 'general women's estate'.... this would seem to open the door to a specific provision for male prisoners identifying as women, which would seem a much better solution.

However, we had the specially built unit at Downview for male prisoners who wished to be in the female estate, but were regarded as too dangerous. (A risk assessment might have actually been done properly.) If I remember, the legal teams of those male people raised hell about segregation, isolation, the utter appallingness of denying them full contact with biological females regardless of what that full contact might do to those females, and those males ended up in the full female estate. The unit has never been used for its intended purpose.

If this is serious, it's going to involve the first real 'no' and it will be heavily legally pushed. BUT the argument of 'male needs this and must not be deprived of it' does involve looking closely at 'where is it a male person's right to be provided with access to non consenting females'? and challenging very firmly the stated belief of 'yes, some women will be raped etc, but you shouldn't punish the good/nice males because of this and deny them access to those female people'.

Which is just horrific beyond belief.

We need the decent male people involved to start being clear that decent male people do not put females in this position or expect options that involve female harm.

Although I suppose that if this is overturned by male prisoners' legal teams then there's clear evidence that the law no longer works for females and will have to be changed.

At least until Labour get into power, slam all of this in reverse, and gallop us into nightmare at high speed.

Was thinking more of the likes of Anneliese Dodds. I know that KS will keep schtum as he will be relying on the student vote next year.

At least until Labour get into power, slam all of this in reverse, and gallop us into nightmare at high speed
Indeed.

There seems to be this mentality that they cant exclude all males, and can only make exceptions when the public find out, and then only that particular subset of men.

We all can name men who claim to no longer have male genitalia who look, sound and behave exactly like every other man. But they are treated differently in law, for some reason.

Good news, but no man should be in a womens’ prison, no matter what he’s done, what he has in his trousers or what lies his birth certificate tells.

A male with his dick cut off could still be a threat.

At least it would put off male criminals claiming to be women.

The usual line is that male people should not be forced into situations where extreme and risky surgery is incentivised.

I agree.

The only fair answer is no males in the female estate. At all. Under any circumstances. But better care taken of male prisoners within the male estate.