Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

KJK opposing fertility treatment for gay couples

510 replies

SapphosRock · 22/02/2023 14:10

KJK seems to have an ongoing beef with same sex couples having fertility treatment. Why? How is this benefiting women's rights?

Is is definitely not benefiting lesbian rights.

It also appears to be attracting all the homophobes on Twitter.

KJK opposing fertility treatment for gay couples
OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
SapphosRock · 22/02/2023 16:00

Does the NHS give free fertility treatment to hetroexual couples who don't have a diagnosed fertility problem? If the answer is no then you are being treated equally.

I believe unexplained infertility is funded yes.

OP posts:
ResisterRex · 22/02/2023 16:01

Not being able to conceive with the person you love is very much a fertility issue.

If one of you is an adult human male, and the other is an adult human female then not being able to conceive is a fertility issue.

If it's a same-sex couple who think there's a fertility issue which is stopping them, they've got a shock coming.

Looks to me like KJK is in fact pointing out that clarity is always needed. If we talk about same-sex couple having "fertility issues" then we get goaded further down the surrogacy road than we do if we talk about opposite-sex couples with that actual issue.

It's useful for being clear about the intentions and consequences of words and campaigns. It's like pushing back against saying "gender" when we mean "sex". Except in this instance, it's a very helpful reminder of the tragedy of surrogacy, which is not a solution to fertility issues for same-sex or opposite-sex couples, but a trade in human misery.

Happylittlechicken · 22/02/2023 16:02

SapphosRock · 22/02/2023 15:58

Yes lesbians have to go through all that too. The difference is straight couples are offered between 1 and 3 rounds of IVF on the NHS. Lesbians have to fund it themselves.

Straight couples are offered it after invasive tests to prove one or both are infertile. Not if both are fertile. If you’re fertile and you want IVF or IUI you have to pay. Are you saying lesbians should have more rights than single straight women. They also have to pay if they are fertile.

Zippidydoda · 22/02/2023 16:02

SapphosRock · 22/02/2023 15:55

I’m wondering what it is you think “fertility” means? Do you think a single woman who wants a baby outside of a relationship has fertility issues? If lesbian couples have “fertility issues” (in absence of any medical problems that might prevent them from becoming pregnant) presumably you must also think this applies to single childless women. Or is it the being in a relationship with “the person you love” that creates the infertility?

I am talking about gay equality. If you support lesbians having equal rights then you would support the NHS treating them the same as heterosexual couples.

The NHS does not offer surrogacy and I don't believe it funds IVF for single women. It does fund donor sperm IUI and IVF for male factor infertility in straight couples. Therefore if you believe lesbians should have equal rights the NHS should fund donor spend IUi and IVF for lesbian couples.

Therefore two women being unable to procreate IS a fertility issue.

I don’t see that as homophobic.
If a lesbian had a male friend they want to have a baby with, but were unable to due to medical infertility, they would be able to access fertility treatment the same as a straight woman.

The difference is the NHS provide fertility treatment for people/couple who are unable to have children due to medical infertility. Having a partner not of the same sex as you is not a medical issue.

FOJN · 22/02/2023 16:02

SapphosRock · 22/02/2023 16:00

Does the NHS give free fertility treatment to hetroexual couples who don't have a diagnosed fertility problem? If the answer is no then you are being treated equally.

I believe unexplained infertility is funded yes.

The inability of two people of the same sex to conceive is not unexplained infertility.

SapphosRock · 22/02/2023 16:03

If KJK's beef is with gay men using surrogates then she should have just Tweeted about men and left lesbians out of it.

OP posts:
Happylittlechicken · 22/02/2023 16:04

SapphosRock · 22/02/2023 16:00

Does the NHS give free fertility treatment to hetroexual couples who don't have a diagnosed fertility problem? If the answer is no then you are being treated equally.

I believe unexplained infertility is funded yes.

Err…. Unexplained infertility is a fertility problem. Lesbians being able to create a baby together is not unexplained fertility. It’s very much explained.

Clymene · 22/02/2023 16:04

SapphosRock · 22/02/2023 16:00

Does the NHS give free fertility treatment to hetroexual couples who don't have a diagnosed fertility problem? If the answer is no then you are being treated equally.

I believe unexplained infertility is funded yes.

These are the criteria for IVF on the NHS:

According to NICE, women aged under 40 should be offered 3 cycles of IVF treatment on the NHS if:
• they've been trying to get pregnant through regular unprotected sex for 2 years
• they've not been able to get pregnant after 12 cycles of artificial insemination, with at least 6 of the cycles using a method called intrauterine insemination (IUI))_

Lesbians do not meet those criteria.

SapphosRock · 22/02/2023 16:07

@Clymene lesbians do meet the second criteria. They can become eligible for IVF after a certain amount of failed IUI attempts. The difference is the NHS funds IUI for straight couples, lesbians must fund it themselves.

OP posts:
Happylittlechicken · 22/02/2023 16:08

@SapphosRock so must single women fund it for themselves. Why do lesbians have more of a right to IVF than a single straight woman?

Signalbox · 22/02/2023 16:08

I believe unexplained infertility is funded yes.

Unexplained infertility is a diagnosis which follows on from having numerous investigations and the reason for infertility not being clear. Not conceiving in a lesbian relationship is hardly “unexplained”

OhHolyJesus · 22/02/2023 16:08

Not directed at my posts but

and the blunt implication in your messages that donor children will be fucked up purely because they are donor children is both offensive and inaccurate.

"The study is the first representative, comparative examination of the identity and well-being of the adult offspring of sperm donation. It is estimated that 30,000-60,000 children are born every year through sperm donation in the U.S. alone.
The study found that young adults who were conceived through sperm donation exhibit higher rates of confusion, isolation, depression, delinquency and substance abuse than those who were raised by their biological parents.
Two-thirds of the donor-conceived adults agreed with the statement “My sperm donor is half of who I am.” About half reported being disturbed that money was involved in their conception.
More than half said that when they see someone who resembles them, they wonder if they are related, while nearly half said they have feared being attracted to or having sexual relations with someone to whom they are unknowingly related.
In addition, two-thirds of the donor-conceived participants affirmed the right of donor children to know the truth about their origins, and about half have concerns about or serious objections to donor conception itself, even when the children are told the truth.
The report offered 19 recommendations to leaders in the areas of law and health; media and popular culture; parents and would-be parents; and civic, social, and religious leaders in the U.S. and around the world. Raising questions of the ethics, meaning and practice of donor conception, the recommendations ask society to consider, “Does a good society intentionally create children in this way?”
Donor-conceived Alana Sveta tells her story on http://FamilyScholars.orgg_ . She describes how she often tells people that her father is dead so she will not have to tell them the truth about being conceived by a sperm donor, a fact that she considers “creepy” and “disgusting.”
“It embarrasses me,” she said.
Sveta said that other donor children feel the same as she does, but have remained largely voiceless. “It’s just that we, the children, haven’t been empowered to vocalize our issues yet. The needs and concerns of our mothers and their partners have trumped and stifled our own,” she said.
Olivia Pratten agreed. “Unfortunately, many of the physicians who run the fertility clinics continue to ignore or dismiss what we say as being a 'bitter few,'” she said. “As this study proves, we are not a few.”

Yes it's a religious source www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/19961/study-shows-problems-for-adults-conceived-by-sperm-donation

The numbers are higher than this though...

bioethics.hms.harvard.edu/journal/donor-technology

And I would encourage a quick look at the donor conception board for more on donor conceived children, not just the donor conception.

Floisme · 22/02/2023 16:09

SapphosRock · 22/02/2023 16:03

If KJK's beef is with gay men using surrogates then she should have just Tweeted about men and left lesbians out of it.

Are you still talking about the tweet you've posted in your op? Because she specifically talks there about both men and women.

Shamoo · 22/02/2023 16:09

OhHolyJesus · 22/02/2023 15:58

I'm very sorry to hear this, reoccurring miscarriage must be horrific and exhausting. No infertile/miscarriages are caused by being same sex attracted and the methods of getting pregnant available to you are obviously more expensive and less impulsive than a heterosexual relationship.

I’m not stupid. I know that being gay didn’t give me five miscarriages. I also know plenty about the methods I can use to get pregnant. But plenty of people on here are putting in place a very clear divide between lesbians and infertile women. My point is that it is possible to be both. Those who say lesbians shouldn’t get free IVF because they don’t have fertility issues: should I have been allowed it after my third miscarriage (given that is when they often say there is a fertility issue for straight women who can very pregnant)? Or am I never allowed it?

For what it’s worth, I paid every penny of my treatment myself, including all the miscarriage investigations. Because the NHS also wouldn’t fund any support in relation to helping diagnose the cause of my miscarriages, because I’m gay. So the NHS ranks straight infertility above gay infertility (in my NHS area, at least).

EpicChaos · 22/02/2023 16:09

@SapphosRock " Two lesbians having IUI or IVF is totally different and is a fertility issue. "

No it isn't! Not unless one or both have a medical problem that stops them from conceiving and let's be honest, they could quite well conceive without undergoing a medical procedure if they chose to close their eyes and think of England, while they do things the normal way, if they are desperate for a child. Either that, or the old turkey baster! They do not necessarily have to go to the expense, time, trouble and pain of using a fertility clinic and associated medical personnel.
It is only a fertility issue if one, or both are infertile!

Signalbox · 22/02/2023 16:13

For what it’s worth, I paid every penny of my treatment myself, including all the miscarriage investigations. Because the NHS also wouldn’t fund any support in relation to helping diagnose the cause of my miscarriages, because I’m gay. So the NHS ranks straight infertility above gay infertility (in my NHS area, at least).

This is where the inequality lies. Investigations and treatments for the issues that cause infertility should be provided to all women on the NHS.

SapphosRock · 22/02/2023 16:13

they could quite well conceive without undergoing a medical procedure if they chose to close their eyes and think of England, while they do things the normal way

Do things the 'normal' way? Right okay Biscuit

OP posts:
picklemewalnuts · 22/02/2023 16:13

I don't support the use of donor eggs.
I don't believe the NHS should pay for fertility treatment for people who are fertile.

I'm not sure I believe the NHS should pay for people who aren't fertile, but realise I'm not the best person to being making that call. I've got two birth children, and have fostered more.

I'm not sure we can always have what we want, when there's not enough to go round. Like it or not, everything is rationed.

DerekFaker · 22/02/2023 16:14

RoseslnTheHospital · 22/02/2023 15:38

KJKs tweet was a standalone tweet. The screenshot is someone else quote tweeting it, I think. I am not a Twitter expert and find it a confusing interface at the best of times.

I saw KJKs tweet because I follow her. I didn't see that particular quote tweet, presumably because I don't follow that person or anyone they have links with (IANATE again).

Yes that's right.

You don't have any control over who replies to or quotes your tweets unless you have a private account. We all get arseholes at times.

picklemewalnuts · 22/02/2023 16:15

SapphosRock · 22/02/2023 16:13

they could quite well conceive without undergoing a medical procedure if they chose to close their eyes and think of England, while they do things the normal way

Do things the 'normal' way? Right okay Biscuit

It is the normal way to conceive a child.

Maybe it's heteronormative when it comes to recreational sex, but for procreative sex there is definitely a 'normal' way. Sad but true!

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 22/02/2023 16:15

DonorMum · 22/02/2023 15:47

My child is donor conceived and there is nothing wrong with my fertility. They're totally different things.

And I don't think my choice of how I conceived my child should be state funded either. It was my choice (and one that I know quite a lot of people don't agree with). And that's fine.

It doesn't mean they're homophobic or that they think single women or lesbian and gay couples shouldn't be parents either.

:)

Assisted conception & donor gametes is an ethical minefield and crikey knows kids come into being in all sorts of non—ideal ways. We just have to do our best to mitigate the non-.ideal bits however they come about (and far more kids are raised in single parent homes due to relationship breakdown/shit dads than donor conception).

I wish we could talk about all these concepts without taking it personally but I realise that’s probably pie in the sky when having children/not having children (by choice or due to infertility) is such a big topic in Women’s lives.

I’m glad to read your comment and I’m glad you have your child
My opinions re: the NHS and donor gametes & Big Fertility as a whole doesn’t mean I can’t be pleased for you on a personal level and it certainly doesn’t mean I have any judgement towards you as a mother. I’m glad you don’t see it that way!

OhHolyJesus · 22/02/2023 16:16

I am talking about gay equality. If you support lesbians having equal rights then you would support the NHS treating them the same as heterosexual couples.

The NHS, for the most part (aside from idealogical capture) deals with the reality of physical bodies and human biology. It doesn't deal in human rights and there are some very obvious differences between same sex and opposite sex couples that people are trying to point out to you where equality has nothing to do with it. The IVF post code lottery with NHS Trust policies and funding is far more relevant than what you are arguing here.

When it comes to Infertility treatment I don't think same sex couples can possibly be treated in the same way as opposite sex couples and again, it's nothing to do with equality, they are simply different with very, very different challenges, which again, I think has been pointed out to you OP.

Helleofabore · 22/02/2023 16:17

FOJN · 22/02/2023 15:58

I am talking about gay equality. If you support lesbians having equal rights then you would support the NHS treating them the same as heterosexual couples.

Does the NHS give free fertility treatment to hetroexual couples who don't have a diagnosed fertility problem? If the answer is no then you are being treated equally.

This is logic that is hard to argue actually.

DaisyDucks · 22/02/2023 16:18

SapphosRock · 22/02/2023 16:03

If KJK's beef is with gay men using surrogates then she should have just Tweeted about men and left lesbians out of it.

Absolutely. Shown her true colours as a homophobe.

Shamoo · 22/02/2023 16:19

OhHolyJesus · 22/02/2023 16:08

Not directed at my posts but

and the blunt implication in your messages that donor children will be fucked up purely because they are donor children is both offensive and inaccurate.

"The study is the first representative, comparative examination of the identity and well-being of the adult offspring of sperm donation. It is estimated that 30,000-60,000 children are born every year through sperm donation in the U.S. alone.
The study found that young adults who were conceived through sperm donation exhibit higher rates of confusion, isolation, depression, delinquency and substance abuse than those who were raised by their biological parents.
Two-thirds of the donor-conceived adults agreed with the statement “My sperm donor is half of who I am.” About half reported being disturbed that money was involved in their conception.
More than half said that when they see someone who resembles them, they wonder if they are related, while nearly half said they have feared being attracted to or having sexual relations with someone to whom they are unknowingly related.
In addition, two-thirds of the donor-conceived participants affirmed the right of donor children to know the truth about their origins, and about half have concerns about or serious objections to donor conception itself, even when the children are told the truth.
The report offered 19 recommendations to leaders in the areas of law and health; media and popular culture; parents and would-be parents; and civic, social, and religious leaders in the U.S. and around the world. Raising questions of the ethics, meaning and practice of donor conception, the recommendations ask society to consider, “Does a good society intentionally create children in this way?”
Donor-conceived Alana Sveta tells her story on http://FamilyScholars.orgg_ . She describes how she often tells people that her father is dead so she will not have to tell them the truth about being conceived by a sperm donor, a fact that she considers “creepy” and “disgusting.”
“It embarrasses me,” she said.
Sveta said that other donor children feel the same as she does, but have remained largely voiceless. “It’s just that we, the children, haven’t been empowered to vocalize our issues yet. The needs and concerns of our mothers and their partners have trumped and stifled our own,” she said.
Olivia Pratten agreed. “Unfortunately, many of the physicians who run the fertility clinics continue to ignore or dismiss what we say as being a 'bitter few,'” she said. “As this study proves, we are not a few.”

Yes it's a religious source www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/19961/study-shows-problems-for-adults-conceived-by-sperm-donation

The numbers are higher than this though...

bioethics.hms.harvard.edu/journal/donor-technology

And I would encourage a quick look at the donor conception board for more on donor conceived children, not just the donor conception.

Like I said in my previous post on this topic, I’m not going to get dragged into a discussion on this with people who are clearly against donor children. But clearly a U.S. Study run by the Catholic Church is not the best source of data, not least because of how different the regulatory framework is in the UK.

FYI, referring me to other parts of this site that I have spent plenty of time on like suddenly they are going to make me agree with you is condescending and patronising.

Swipe left for the next trending thread