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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anyone else hearing of backlash against trans ideology among their teens?

288 replies

KnittingDiva · 20/02/2023 11:00

My 14 year old DS has been telling me that among his age group now there is no tolerance for Trans/NB TikTok influencers and that they are being ridiculed etc..

This is a very different attitude than when my older two (17 and 19) were at that age and it was the start of that trend and they would have been overtly respectful on that issue (would have avoided it mostly but not ridicule).

It seems it is now seen as being an 'older' person trying to be cool with the kids and a bit creepy.

Anyone else noticed this change or is it just here (Rep of Ireland)?

OP posts:
DodoPatrol · 20/02/2023 17:46

Radi06music · 20/02/2023 17:36

Wow. So many proud parents here, proud of their children bullying others.
You know a lot of these children who are trans are autistic. They don't deserve to be laughed at and ridiculed.

The OPs comments just made me think of Andrew Tate and this whole new wave of hate and misogyny.

I get the reasons you don't like the trans thing but don't be proud of kids being bullies FFS

You know a lot of these children who are trans are autistic.

Yes. We do. That's likely to be why they are falling for this stuff, yes. Doesn't it give you pause that so very many of them are autistic, or otherwise neurodiverse, or have a family tragedy in their background?

None of that means they are the opposite sex. How on earth could it?

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 20/02/2023 17:46

Radi06music · 20/02/2023 17:43

*Her teens despise the poor grammar, not the people.

Perhaps read a little more carefully before wading in? I realise the poor grammar IS confusing, which is why so many of us despise it.*

Yes I realise that now. Easy to make the mistake with all the other posts full of proud parents who's children are congratulated for hating other kids

You are conflating a dislike of the ideology with a dislike of the people.

My eldest and youngest both think gender is a crock of shite but still love their middle sibling who currently identifies as the opposite sex. They see the harm that the ideology is causing with their own eyes.

TheSingingBean · 20/02/2023 17:47

Radi06music, I think you're being harsh.

Posters aren't proud of their kids hating other kids, they're simply reporting the ways their children respond to what is at heart a toxic and pernicious ideology.

On the contrary, I see concern and sympathy for those who have been, and will be, hurt by this.

MyFlagMeansIceCream · 20/02/2023 17:47

Jayneisagirlsname · 20/02/2023 12:49

Yep, my DS14 and DD12 have very little tolerance for it and often say they identify as a millionaire/ yacht owner etc.

DD in particular gets very riled about stereotypes 'oh if you're a girl who likes building, you must be trans - just stupid'.

I'm a girl who likes building and I've made a very nice career from it :-)

None of my teens have ever bought into the ideology, but they have been more open about it recently

Radi06music · 20/02/2023 17:47

Fififafa
DD13 is at a girls school and she and her friends refer to the “they/thems” in pitying tones…by all accounts it seems to be the girls who are unpopular/overweight/unhappy that get captured by the ideology. It is NOT seen as aspirational, more something to be pitied.

Do you not think this is just disgusting??

It's only the saddos and fattys who are into it. It's not for the cool kids. What the actual fuck

Delphinium20 · 20/02/2023 17:47

DD13 is at a girls school and she and her friends refer to the “they/thems” in pitying tones…by all accounts it seems to be the girls who are unpopular/overweight/unhappy that get captured by the ideology. It is NOT seen as aspirational, more something to be pitied.

This is also the case for my younger DD. The older one no longer pities...is just fed up.

Radi06music · 20/02/2023 17:48

TheSingingBean · 20/02/2023 17:47

Radi06music, I think you're being harsh.

Posters aren't proud of their kids hating other kids, they're simply reporting the ways their children respond to what is at heart a toxic and pernicious ideology.

On the contrary, I see concern and sympathy for those who have been, and will be, hurt by this.

That's bollocks, have you read this thread??

Helleofabore · 20/02/2023 17:49

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 20/02/2023 12:20

It is mostly the preserve of the privileged, middle class teen with clueless #bekind parents or status-seeking parents. In my experience, anyway.
I was with you until you got to the parents. I can assure you I'm neither of those. I do have an autistic child who has swallowed the gender myth and is trying to be a boy. Much to my displeasure and objection.

I am here to say that I agree with you pastmy.

Not one of the five families I am friends with with trans identifying teens are in any way ‘be kind’ or ‘status seeking’. I think it is a harmful assumption to make.

And not one of them is ‘clueless’, although they all were ‘clueless’ about gender identity before their child made the announcement. But each of those teens has a diagnosis of ASD and is female.

Not one of the parents talks about it much either. They certainly are not using it for social cache or anything at all like that. Far from it.

They are fucking distressed about the ramifications for their child’s health.

TheSingingBean · 20/02/2023 17:50

Radi06music · 20/02/2023 17:48

That's bollocks, have you read this thread??

Yes, every post.

I was prepared to engage civility with you but you're clearly here to cause trouble so I'm out.

Waspie · 20/02/2023 17:51

TheSingingBean · 20/02/2023 17:50

Yes, every post.

I was prepared to engage civility with you but you're clearly here to cause trouble so I'm out.

I think that is the intention.

Radi06music · 20/02/2023 17:53

*Yes. We do. That's likely to be why they are falling for this stuff, yes. Doesn't it give you pause that so very many of them are autistic, or otherwise neurodiverse, or have a family tragedy in their background?

None of that means they are the opposite sex. How on earth could it?*

No, but do they deserve to be bullied?

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2023 17:54

SlouchingTowardsBethlehemAgain · 20/02/2023 15:55

I would be concerned if my DC were ridiculing trans and non binary children. What kind of a mum is so self-congratulatory about such bullying?

I think theres a MASSIVE difference between ridiculing the lunacy of the ideology and bullying individual kids. The problem is the individual kids will take it personally because they are vulnerable.

But ultimately the ideology is crazy. Especially the non-binary stuff. You can't just pretend it isn't because that has ramifications. Being nice about it, doesn't work because ultimately its harming kids - not just mentally but also physically. You can't just 'remain neutral' and passive as a result, as the say nothing/do nothing position isn't neutral.

Having kids willing to stand up to 1984 levels of shite IS to be congratulated. Not because its against kids, but its against abuses of power. The whole "BeKind" thing with no critical thinking IS an abuse of power. It is coercive. It uses emotion to manipulate your behaviour and do / say things you feel uncomfortable with and don't believe.

The fact that kids are questioning what they are being taught to think, and are in effect, starting to rebel against that is good. And also interesting. Culturally British kids of a certain age (coincidentally this pre / early teen period) have tended to kick back against authoritarianism and thats probably also an element to whats starting to happen as liberal inclusivity has stepped over into authoritarianism imposed from above. The shoving of the rainbow so forcefully when the kids can see the problems with it, WILL lead to a backlash. The idea that a backlash would only occur in older people is silly, when you think about how you were as teens. Its the tedium and repeatitive stuff that leads to the ultimate switch off.

And of course, given the disappearance of an entire 'school tribe' from modern uk schools, the question of where they went is an interesting one. The school tribes are known to occur in almost every western culture in the world regardless of language. Its part of the hierachy in schools so the idea it could suddenly just 'disappear' is strange. We know there is a clear link between the Punk, Goth, Grunge, Emo tribes that all were in the same type of person, just at a different time. Social contagion is really hard to ignore because of the pattern. And Anime with the online technological change / culture shift was the natural successor. They were always the 'outsider'. The other kids generally tolerated them, and DIDN'T bully them (though a minority definitely did) but the other kids thought they were weird / attention seeking. Nothing has changed on that score, apart from the fact it was off limits to express this due to 'The Fear' of the 'BeKind' witchhunters. And 'The Fear' in itself is not nice and carries more than a tone of bullying and intimidation itself. Its hardly inclusive of diversity of thought.

(As an aside, I find it fascinating that the latest Pokemon games are showing a shift and theres a big change planned. Some history: For the last 30 years Ash has been the hero of the cartoon and you could only play the games as a boy. News has recently come out saying that Nintendo is planning to axe him and replace him with a lead for the first time. The latest games - Scarlet and Violet allow you to play as a girl for the very first time. And the new series, inside of having the bad guys 'Team Rocket' there's a new group of baddies. And heres the interesting bit - the premise is they are the kids who were bullied, who ganged together and hit back and in doing so pretty much became the bullies themselves cos the school had failed to deal with the problems properly. These were good kids who were well intentioned but ended up taking a wrong turn and needed the school to realise the problem and bring them back into the fold and not fail them. 'Team Star' as they are called all dress up in strange clothes compared to all the other characters almost in the style of punk, emo, goth, anime lover - unlike the rest of the characters in the game. I can't help but think the timing is most intriging given real world narratives and whether there is this sense that 'the blue haired animes' have almost taken the outsider culture online and in how thats leaked to the real world to its limits and there's starting to almost be a recognition of this narrative forming around the world)

Where the UK is different is how the school tribes are slightly different to the US tribes. We have the 'cool kids' and the 'sporty kid' tribes but they are less extreme than for example the cheerleader girls and the jocks. I forget the full list (it was something like cool, sporty, nerds, goths, chavs/neds - I'm sure someone can enlighten me). So it possibly isn't a surprise that theres change / kick back here sooner especially as parents are less on board and we don't have the whole democrat/liberal v republican/religious nutter thing going on here too.

The phrase that sums up this conflict which perhaps looks contradictory to say that 'yes you should be supportive of eye rolling' at non-binary/trans craze is this one: “We must all face the choice between what is right and what is easy." It is certainly not an endorsement of bullying these kids.

I think many of teenagers eye rolling and calling it attention seeking can very clear see the kids doing it are troubled in some way, and perhaps need help (help which a teenager is rarely able to provide - precisely because they are kids themselves too). I think the point someone raised upthread about the other kids 'steering well clear' is grounded in a recognition of this and avoiding getting sucked into the drama / trouble in the NB / Trans kids lives. Cos most kids, whilst not necessarily supportive of the nonsense also aren't going to be horrid and engage in deliberate bullying either. The limit is probably sighing, eye rolling and piss taking out of exasperation at the demands being made of them. Which I think most adults would do. The line is where exasperation crosses to targetted vindicative attacks rather than just being thoroughly fed up of it.

Reducing the things going on here and the relief others on the thread have about kids maybe realising theres an issue to 'supporting bullies and hating on people' is more of the same divisive narrow drivel that got everyone into this mess in the first place.

bellac11 · 20/02/2023 17:54

Radi06music · 20/02/2023 17:47

Fififafa
DD13 is at a girls school and she and her friends refer to the “they/thems” in pitying tones…by all accounts it seems to be the girls who are unpopular/overweight/unhappy that get captured by the ideology. It is NOT seen as aspirational, more something to be pitied.

Do you not think this is just disgusting??

It's only the saddos and fattys who are into it. It's not for the cool kids. What the actual fuck

Well sometimes it is, because the children who identify as x, y and z bully the others so they become pseudo cool to persuade the even more vulnerable kids into it

Sometimes they are just the more unfortunate kids that need support in different ways but that isnt available.

It is sad but children are not immune to seeing and seeking out where they want to go in life and that is to be achieving, popular, attractive, aspirational. That is human nature and unfortunately when other people draw attention to themselves in ridiculous ways there will be ridicule. Its how most humans learn what is socially appropriate

I think some of the problems of this ideology (and others) has been the narrative that people should be who they are, people will love you and respect you for who you are, be yourself etc etc

That isnt true and actually shouldnt be true, for lots of reasons. Kids arent stupid, if someone is a whining self absorbed attention seeking and 'thats who I am', they're going to be pretty much rejected within their peer group for that.

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 20/02/2023 17:54

Helleofabore · 20/02/2023 17:49

I am here to say that I agree with you pastmy.

Not one of the five families I am friends with with trans identifying teens are in any way ‘be kind’ or ‘status seeking’. I think it is a harmful assumption to make.

And not one of them is ‘clueless’, although they all were ‘clueless’ about gender identity before their child made the announcement. But each of those teens has a diagnosis of ASD and is female.

Not one of the parents talks about it much either. They certainly are not using it for social cache or anything at all like that. Far from it.

They are fucking distressed about the ramifications for their child’s health.

I agree.

The rainbows-everywhere-trans-activist parents are a very vocal minority - most parents are either terrified into compliance by the suicide statistics/threats of family alienation or are trying their best to be gently skeptical (often with the school going directly against their parental wishes).

Brokendaughter · 20/02/2023 17:54

Radi06music · 20/02/2023 17:47

Fififafa
DD13 is at a girls school and she and her friends refer to the “they/thems” in pitying tones…by all accounts it seems to be the girls who are unpopular/overweight/unhappy that get captured by the ideology. It is NOT seen as aspirational, more something to be pitied.

Do you not think this is just disgusting??

It's only the saddos and fattys who are into it. It's not for the cool kids. What the actual fuck

It certainly isn't for 'the cool kids'.
After all, isn't it supposedly a 'real' thing, not a fashion or trend?

Not sure anyone has ever made a link between the weight of any individual & their susceptibility to a cult though, other than you.

Is that what you are personally afraid is the truth about who follows this ideology?

Fififafa · 20/02/2023 17:55

Radi06music · 20/02/2023 17:44

@Radi06music I guess comprehension isn’t your strong point. Have one of these for free 🙄.

Yes I'm really thick. You can ridicule me if it gives you pleasure

In fairness you have waded in, all guns blazing. Would you rather we all lied about what our teens are telling us?

Amortentia · 20/02/2023 17:55

Orangesandlemons77 · 20/02/2023 12:16

My friend's daughter attends a very working class area city centre Glaswegian secondary and it seems rife there.

Yes, one of my children attend a similar type of school in Glasgow. It was mostly girls identifying as boys. They got access to the boys bathrooms so the boys refused to use them. It was a nightmare.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 20/02/2023 17:55

Thank you Helle. I could be one of your friends except I've been able to see this coming and I've been reading here for years.

hamstersarse · 20/02/2023 17:56

Radi06music · 20/02/2023 17:47

Fififafa
DD13 is at a girls school and she and her friends refer to the “they/thems” in pitying tones…by all accounts it seems to be the girls who are unpopular/overweight/unhappy that get captured by the ideology. It is NOT seen as aspirational, more something to be pitied.

Do you not think this is just disgusting??

It's only the saddos and fattys who are into it. It's not for the cool kids. What the actual fuck

I think it is often the children who are unpopular, yes. And this is a way / has been a way to gain some sort of notoriety or status. Adolescence has always been hard, finding your place in the world has always been hard - this was a way to make your mark!

The problem with this is so vast that you could write a book on it, but to boil it down, encouraging ridicule from their peer group by dressing up as the opposite sex or wearing a tail is totally irresponsible on the part of the adults involved - they are weak adults. These children need support in finding their strengths and their talents so they can truly find their place in the world not wasting their time on this pile of dogshit

FrancescaContini · 20/02/2023 17:56

@Radi06music You lost me when you said that this thread reminded you of Andrew Tate. Wow.

Shelefttheweb · 20/02/2023 18:02

Chersfrozenface · 20/02/2023 12:10

I'm of the opinion that would-be trans/NB "influencers" need ridiculing.

Agree.

These are individuals who push to destroy women’s rights, to destroy children’s puberty, encourage sterilisation, self harm and lifelong medication. They tell children to hide this from their parents and offer so-called ‘glitter families. They are linked with the promotion of pornography and fetish to children. Ridicule is the least they deserve.

maranella · 20/02/2023 18:04

There are other MNers with this issue @Mykittensmittens. I'm not sure which board they post on, but do an advanced search and you should find them and their posts.

You'll get largely support and sympathy, I suspect. MN is generally pretty gender critical, not least because this is a feminist issue, but also because ultimately we're talking about DC who may do themselves permanent and serious harm if they take puberty blockers/cross-sex hormones. We also know that many of these DC are autistic, have MH problems, may be victims of abuse, and many of them are gay or bisexual. The new book about the Tavistock clinic Time to Think by Hannah Barnes has evidence that there are parents out there who'd rather have a trans DC than a gay one. How fucked up is that?

GloomyDarkness · 20/02/2023 18:06

I find myself wondering how many GCSE certs are going to have to be reissued due to desistence from the trans identity listed on the paperwork!

My school exam officer made it very clear to us that our exam certificates should be in our legal name - only way DD1 and her friends knew this - and that it could be a problem in job market was because we told them.

So I too wonder if this will be an increasing issue for some.

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 20/02/2023 18:14

GloomyDarkness · 20/02/2023 18:06

I find myself wondering how many GCSE certs are going to have to be reissued due to desistence from the trans identity listed on the paperwork!

My school exam officer made it very clear to us that our exam certificates should be in our legal name - only way DD1 and her friends knew this - and that it could be a problem in job market was because we told them.

So I too wonder if this will be an increasing issue for some.

It wasn’t a problem for us because DD is a summer baby and thus sat her GCSEs at 15.
At 16 she was able to change her name legally and without parental permission. Fingers crossed she’s ditched her (Victorian orphan) boy name by the end of A levels.

Anyone with a trans identifying teen who turns 16 in the early part of the academic year needs to be aware of this - especially as if the trans identity does stick into adulthood an individual can get certificates changed free of charge at a later date by written request to exam boards - absolutely no need for teens to rush in and do it in the first instance.

Mad that we can get child benefit for them until they are 19 (if in full time ed) but that they can change their legal name without parental input at 16.

janefondofu · 20/02/2023 18:18

Mizzem · 20/02/2023 11:26

My 14 year old DD is quite scathing. No tolerance for pronouns and trans contagion nonsense in school, and lots of pisstaking dog / dogself etc. at home. I'm surprised really because I could easily see her being the 'bekind' type, but she is very funny, and I think the absurdity of it all appeals to her sense of humour. Her younger brother has an 'enby/fluid' gf and DD told me quietly 'she's one of those' with an eyeroll. DS is 13 and very GC in theory but is surrounded by it. He will use new names and pronouns at school but privately he doesn't. He speaks quite eloquently about it to be fair e.g. he totally accepted his male friend liking pink glittery accessories becasue he likes them, but takes issue with the same friend now saying he has a glittery bag 'becasue he's trans'. SDS 14 says his yeargroup is full of people lying about their gender which tickled me. I think the tide is turning. Now boring old adults (in their eyes) are fully on board I'm sure it is starting to lose its shine to teens.

Your daughter sounds a bit mean