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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Trans and losing my mind...

953 replies

bluepetergeneration · 18/02/2023 21:07

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

OP posts:
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14
EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 18:35

Also, there is no clarity about when and how it all started.

I don’t think we really gave an inch, an inch was taken without asking.

There used to be someone on here going on about Jan Morris blah blah blah… turns out JM was a sadistic misogynist bastard.

I want to rewind the clock to before men started testing the water, publicly claiming to be transsexuals and using women’s spaces without our consent.

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 18:46

I want to quote DrEm’s article on forced teaming that Tinsel linked to.

Forced teaming is a term employed by those who work on abuse, grooming and predation. It was originally coined by Gavin De Becker in his work The Gift of Fear and is also used as a concept regarding criminal activity such as con-artists and romantic scamming. The predator will create the idea that there is a shared goal, or an attitude of we are all in this together, we are allies, in order to disarm, gain trust and manipulate his target. The social contract that most people have been educated or raised in – that we should try not to offend others, be polite, be accommodating – makes forced teaming incredibly difficult to resist. In general, we don’t want to be rude and say ‘actually, your problems or goals are different to mine and so no, we should not work together’ or ‘no, I don’t feel comfortable with this’. The shared goal can be, on an individual level, as small as a man helping carry shopping to a woman’s apartment in order to gain access and rape her. Forced teaming confuses our intuition and disarms us to threat. Jennifer Lombardo wrote in Abusive Relationships and Domestic Violence ‘people use words such as “we” and “us” to trick others into thinking they are part of a team’ when they aren’t.[efnnote]J. Lombardo, Abusive Relationships and Domestic Violence (Greenhaven Publishing, 2018)[/efnnote] It builds trust when none should be there. Forced teaming, when applied to movements, can be as large as many men claiming feminism should work towards their goals not women’s, or that the LGB should work towards heterosexual entitlement.

Forced teaming is behind the dictate of inclusiveness. It is by this way that manipulative males gain access and can control and change the goals of movements. It is how individual males have entered formerly women’s groups and formerly LGB pressure groups and can both watch what is being said and direct the narrative.

NotHavingIt · 19/02/2023 19:07

pattihews · 19/02/2023 18:15

Yes, and you can see how people like the OP are now going to play it. 'Criticise those trans people over there, because they're not true trans and they can't be trusted, but I'm the genuine article, I pass, I have a child, I'm too scared to use the men's loo so I have no alternative but to use yours so do be kind, won't you?'

No. Because that's where all this shit started.

Show quote history

Yes, but that can be dealt with in time. That kind of unofficial 'arrangement' has been in operation for a long time, albeit without expressed consent. None of this has even touched the general public consciousness. Many of us here were not even aware up until the last six/seven years or so.

To win in politics you have to gain popular opinion and achieve general consensus That is not to say that you give up on your goals and on your principles, but that the biggest risks and dangers are dealt with first.

I'm of the working assumption that with time and awareness all of which you describe and want will become self evident to most people.

NotHavingIt · 19/02/2023 19:11

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 18:46

I want to quote DrEm’s article on forced teaming that Tinsel linked to.

Forced teaming is a term employed by those who work on abuse, grooming and predation. It was originally coined by Gavin De Becker in his work The Gift of Fear and is also used as a concept regarding criminal activity such as con-artists and romantic scamming. The predator will create the idea that there is a shared goal, or an attitude of we are all in this together, we are allies, in order to disarm, gain trust and manipulate his target. The social contract that most people have been educated or raised in – that we should try not to offend others, be polite, be accommodating – makes forced teaming incredibly difficult to resist. In general, we don’t want to be rude and say ‘actually, your problems or goals are different to mine and so no, we should not work together’ or ‘no, I don’t feel comfortable with this’. The shared goal can be, on an individual level, as small as a man helping carry shopping to a woman’s apartment in order to gain access and rape her. Forced teaming confuses our intuition and disarms us to threat. Jennifer Lombardo wrote in Abusive Relationships and Domestic Violence ‘people use words such as “we” and “us” to trick others into thinking they are part of a team’ when they aren’t.[efnnote]J. Lombardo, Abusive Relationships and Domestic Violence (Greenhaven Publishing, 2018)[/efnnote] It builds trust when none should be there. Forced teaming, when applied to movements, can be as large as many men claiming feminism should work towards their goals not women’s, or that the LGB should work towards heterosexual entitlement.

Forced teaming is behind the dictate of inclusiveness. It is by this way that manipulative males gain access and can control and change the goals of movements. It is how individual males have entered formerly women’s groups and formerly LGB pressure groups and can both watch what is being said and direct the narrative.

I think what you are calling " forced teaming" is actually building a consensus around your goals, which tends to be the only way you can actually achieve any meaningful implementation. There is nothing compromising, cynical or suspicious about that.

I'm imagining what we all want is the same thing: to protect the integrity, dignity and safety of women as a distinct human grouping, and to reject the imposition of gender ideology onto children?

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 19:42

I think you've completely misunderstood what forced teaming is. Or is your post itself a sort of meta object lesson in forced teaming?

I'm imagining what we all want is the same thing: to protect the integrity, dignity and safety of women as a distinct human grouping, and to reject the imposition of gender ideology onto children?

Who is 'we'? What is your definition of 'women'?

TinselAngel · 19/02/2023 19:56

I think what you are calling " forced teaming" is actually building a consensus around your goals

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

donquixotedelamancha · 19/02/2023 20:11

I think what you are calling " forced teaming" is actually building a consensus around your goals, which tends to be the only way you can actually achieve any meaningful implementation. There is nothing compromising, cynical or suspicious about that.

Two completely different things going on:

  1. Groups like Stonewall insisting that all gay people or all feminists are (must be) in favour of self-ID and those that aren't are bigots. That's forced teaming.
  2. Different groups that oppose self-ID working together despite different views, whether it's feminists and trans people of Posie Parker and American conservatives. This one is utterly normal and (as many have said) the way you change society.

Of course it's completely normal to have groups you wont work with too.

pattihews · 19/02/2023 20:35

Forced teaming is recommended by Denton's, a major legal company in the US, which years ago drew up a plan on how to promote and normalise the TQ+. Everyone know that the TQ+ was unpopular and unlikely to be widely accepted by the general public and so Denton's suggested the TQ+ pursued its agenda by piggy-backing on another minority movement.

Stonewall had successfully lobbied for change in the UK and had won almost all the equal rights that it had set out to achieve. It was acknowledged to have been a success and changed the way the public thought about lesbian, gay and bisexual people. Now its work was done — and so a number of key players who'd been working behind the scenes approached Stonewall and persuaded it to attach the T (and then the Q and the +) to the LGB. Stonewall wasn't a membership organisation so it didn't have to consult its supporters. The staff of Stonewall wanted to keep their jobs and continue training, so the organisation agreed to add the T — despite the fact that gender ideologists don't believe in sex and so the T was in direct opposition to the well-being of the LGB.

This is forced teaming, when one group or cause or organisation is teamed with another that isn't a natural, willing fit.

Here's James Kirkup on the subject, four years ago:
www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

Righthandcider · 19/02/2023 20:36

nilsmousehammer · 19/02/2023 13:44

These conversations with polite, reasonable, male TS who explain their difficulties and do it all without the shouting, the ranting, the threats and sexual violence and yada yada that we're all so familiar with, have been happening on MN FWR for years.

And yes, anyone compassionate person is going to be aware that for these male people, to reclaim women's spaces and services is going to end the privilege set up years ago for men by men without consulting women. Those men's plight is real, they have been harmed by the rather insane activist years.

But if you've been around the block long enough you start to notice two things.

One is that all of these nice male people always, invariably, have the purpose of asking women to draw a line that excludes other males but includes them in women's groups, spaces, facilities, lives.

Now this has been tried. It was the GRA in fact. A very small number of men who had or were in the process of wholly and entirely transitioning, were given the right by other men (no one bothered to look at whether this worked for women or they agreed, because merely women) to use women's spaces, facilities etc. In fact I believe using those spaces was required as part of proving seriousness of transition.

It has been pushed, and exploited and abused beyond belief, because this only would ever have worked if men were able to respect women. And they can't. And it's now broken beyond repair. The time when this was a usable solution to return to is long, long since gone. It is unworkable. Because you will always have a male like the OP who is realistic about biology, fully transitioned, telling you that no one could ever know they were male. And behind the OP will be other male people, all of whom will claim that they pass whether they do or not, some of them will have beards like Alex, and others be shouting 'call me ma'am' at you. And behind them are males who will tell you that a requirement to 'pass' is false and cruelty, and who are you to gatekeep their womanhood, that it isn't about appearance, that women appear as a whole spectrum, the word salad will be enough to drown in. And behind them will be the one with the sword, or the one wanting to raid the sanpro bin to put the tampons up their bums, and the one who wants to help little girls fit their tampons, and the ones who will photograph themselves wanking on the toilet next to you, and the ones who will tell you they're coming in, you can't stop them, and they'll rape/kill you if you look at them wrong.

They will all use the OP's words, claims and access to leverage their own. The very sad truth is, no gatekeeping of some males and not others is possible. There are no cards issued, no gatekeeping on the doors, if it is any single one male then it is all of them.

Females can only have female only, accessible spaces if no male at all is ever permitted to use them and males are capable of respecting female need, inclusion and access equally to their own.

And that brings me to the second thing that every nice TS MNetter has shown us here.

They all of them - all - listen to women explaining, the exclusion of females that is inevitable in order to meet unmet male need, why this does not work for women, why women cannot be the cloth to mop up for male human problems. And they all end as the OP has. In gently, even apologetically, informing that they have listened, and their decision is that they will just use women's spaces because they need to and wish to. Daddy has spoken.

And it's always that women will just have to be excluded and subordinated, because a male person is in need and sad and has problems. And good women would put them first anyway.

Now oddly enough, I'm not ok with that.

This is brilliant. Thank you.

Baldieheid · 19/02/2023 20:45

nilsmousehammer · 19/02/2023 13:44

These conversations with polite, reasonable, male TS who explain their difficulties and do it all without the shouting, the ranting, the threats and sexual violence and yada yada that we're all so familiar with, have been happening on MN FWR for years.

And yes, anyone compassionate person is going to be aware that for these male people, to reclaim women's spaces and services is going to end the privilege set up years ago for men by men without consulting women. Those men's plight is real, they have been harmed by the rather insane activist years.

But if you've been around the block long enough you start to notice two things.

One is that all of these nice male people always, invariably, have the purpose of asking women to draw a line that excludes other males but includes them in women's groups, spaces, facilities, lives.

Now this has been tried. It was the GRA in fact. A very small number of men who had or were in the process of wholly and entirely transitioning, were given the right by other men (no one bothered to look at whether this worked for women or they agreed, because merely women) to use women's spaces, facilities etc. In fact I believe using those spaces was required as part of proving seriousness of transition.

It has been pushed, and exploited and abused beyond belief, because this only would ever have worked if men were able to respect women. And they can't. And it's now broken beyond repair. The time when this was a usable solution to return to is long, long since gone. It is unworkable. Because you will always have a male like the OP who is realistic about biology, fully transitioned, telling you that no one could ever know they were male. And behind the OP will be other male people, all of whom will claim that they pass whether they do or not, some of them will have beards like Alex, and others be shouting 'call me ma'am' at you. And behind them are males who will tell you that a requirement to 'pass' is false and cruelty, and who are you to gatekeep their womanhood, that it isn't about appearance, that women appear as a whole spectrum, the word salad will be enough to drown in. And behind them will be the one with the sword, or the one wanting to raid the sanpro bin to put the tampons up their bums, and the one who wants to help little girls fit their tampons, and the ones who will photograph themselves wanking on the toilet next to you, and the ones who will tell you they're coming in, you can't stop them, and they'll rape/kill you if you look at them wrong.

They will all use the OP's words, claims and access to leverage their own. The very sad truth is, no gatekeeping of some males and not others is possible. There are no cards issued, no gatekeeping on the doors, if it is any single one male then it is all of them.

Females can only have female only, accessible spaces if no male at all is ever permitted to use them and males are capable of respecting female need, inclusion and access equally to their own.

And that brings me to the second thing that every nice TS MNetter has shown us here.

They all of them - all - listen to women explaining, the exclusion of females that is inevitable in order to meet unmet male need, why this does not work for women, why women cannot be the cloth to mop up for male human problems. And they all end as the OP has. In gently, even apologetically, informing that they have listened, and their decision is that they will just use women's spaces because they need to and wish to. Daddy has spoken.

And it's always that women will just have to be excluded and subordinated, because a male person is in need and sad and has problems. And good women would put them first anyway.

Now oddly enough, I'm not ok with that.

Yeah, I'm not okay with that, either.

OP, the answer is no, you're male so you use male facilities and services. Oh and no, you don't pass unnoticed. You really really don't.

pattihews · 19/02/2023 21:00

NotHavingIt · 19/02/2023 19:07

Yes, but that can be dealt with in time. That kind of unofficial 'arrangement' has been in operation for a long time, albeit without expressed consent. None of this has even touched the general public consciousness. Many of us here were not even aware up until the last six/seven years or so.

To win in politics you have to gain popular opinion and achieve general consensus That is not to say that you give up on your goals and on your principles, but that the biggest risks and dangers are dealt with first.

I'm of the working assumption that with time and awareness all of which you describe and want will become self evident to most people.

Show quote history

No. There was never an unofficial arrangement, it was always men literally taking the piss. An arrangement implies discussion and some kind of agreement and that was never had. Men chanced it, pushed in and got away with it much of the time because women were too polite or nervous to say anything. When I've talked about it on street campaigns lots of women have pulled disgusted faces and said we've always had men who did that kind of thing and they've always hated it, but now we're expected to welcome them.

This is not acceptable. We've seen from the prison/ rapist situation that men will do or say anything to get into women's space. I think it's very difficult for women to appreciate the sheer wiliness of men and their sexual motivations. Now we're seeing it and we really don't need the 'be kind' brigade trying to look for some kind of happy consensus. Women's space and most women say no. Just because you're okay with giving your rights away, NotHavingIt, doesn't mean to say you can give away mine. I'm not having it.

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 21:10

we've always had men who did that kind of thing and they've always hated it, but now we're expected to welcome them

I think that's the final insult, really.

We were never asked. We held our tongues for fear of either reprisal, violence or causing upset. Now, we're told that if we don't actively applaud and celebrate this expansion of 'women' to include males, we need re educated.

No, thank you.

BellaAmorosa · 19/02/2023 21:37

@NotHavingIt
The biggest risks and dangers are to women imprisoned right now with males. To children being indoctrinated in queer theory and trained to lower their guard against predators. To teenagers being encouraged to medicate their bodies for no good reason. To girls and women being shoved out of sports they love. To young lesbians and gays being shamed for their natural and healthy same-sex attraction. Why should any of those people have to wait one minute longer than necessary in order for you to appease your mates? What on earth makes you think there would not be popular support for single sex spaces, services and sports? Reality can't compromise with nonsense. No males means no males.

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 21:52

bluepetergeneration · 18/02/2023 21:07

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

I am struggling to see in the OP where women’s plight is articulated. Talk is cheap. ‘I care about the safety of women’. What does that mean? What does it entail? ‘I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny’. What form does this misogyny take?

How is OP standing beside us?

I can’t see the common ground, only unsubstantiated claims.

Annaissleeping · 19/02/2023 22:09

I had a think about men I know... if we follow the logic that you should be allowed in women's bathrooms, as someone who is 5'7" and not as strong as you used to be

I came up with -

my male gay friend who is physically slight and effeminate and who has definitely been subjected to male violence in the past at different stages of his life
A few of my male elderly relatives who have had strokes or cancer and physically aren't capable of harming a fly
A friend's ex-boyfriend who was raped as a child and who I imagine never feels particularly safe anywhere, especially among men (he was abusive to my friend though and is over 6ft tall. Just so you know the full details)

What else could we add? Men who are recovering from surgery and temporarily weakened?
Men with learning disabilities with low muscle tone
Men with some physical disabilities?

Where do we then stop, if we let you in? All of the above are men and women on these boards are saying very clearly, we do not want men in our spaces. It is not just for safety reasons, it's for privacy and dignity and comfort.

I, for one, have been really interested in reading this thread and seeing the degree to which women have had enough. We have been pushed and pushed and it has only made us more clear what we will and will not accept.

ChewtonRoad · 19/02/2023 22:28

For those of you who say 'just go in the mens!' I hope that me explaining my physical stats has given some understanding as to why that isn't a possibility for me.

It does not. This "I would feel unsafe standing next to a bunch of men, and I came here in good faith thinking people women would understand that..." is indicative of your determination to do exactly what you want, no matter that women have told you that we do not want men in our single sex spaces.

Now that women haven't fawned over you and said of course you pass and oh yes you can invade our spaces because your feelings are so much more important than our lived reality, you're running away.

I do not have ill will towards you, your partner, or your daughter nor wish you any sort of harm. But you and your partner are men and will always be men, and it is imperative that you pay attention to this: when women say no, we mean it. We are not your support humans. We will not give our rights away because of your feelings. If you have problems with other men, then take responsibility and sort things out with those men.

haggisbreath · 19/02/2023 22:28

nilsmousehammer · 19/02/2023 13:44

These conversations with polite, reasonable, male TS who explain their difficulties and do it all without the shouting, the ranting, the threats and sexual violence and yada yada that we're all so familiar with, have been happening on MN FWR for years.

And yes, anyone compassionate person is going to be aware that for these male people, to reclaim women's spaces and services is going to end the privilege set up years ago for men by men without consulting women. Those men's plight is real, they have been harmed by the rather insane activist years.

But if you've been around the block long enough you start to notice two things.

One is that all of these nice male people always, invariably, have the purpose of asking women to draw a line that excludes other males but includes them in women's groups, spaces, facilities, lives.

Now this has been tried. It was the GRA in fact. A very small number of men who had or were in the process of wholly and entirely transitioning, were given the right by other men (no one bothered to look at whether this worked for women or they agreed, because merely women) to use women's spaces, facilities etc. In fact I believe using those spaces was required as part of proving seriousness of transition.

It has been pushed, and exploited and abused beyond belief, because this only would ever have worked if men were able to respect women. And they can't. And it's now broken beyond repair. The time when this was a usable solution to return to is long, long since gone. It is unworkable. Because you will always have a male like the OP who is realistic about biology, fully transitioned, telling you that no one could ever know they were male. And behind the OP will be other male people, all of whom will claim that they pass whether they do or not, some of them will have beards like Alex, and others be shouting 'call me ma'am' at you. And behind them are males who will tell you that a requirement to 'pass' is false and cruelty, and who are you to gatekeep their womanhood, that it isn't about appearance, that women appear as a whole spectrum, the word salad will be enough to drown in. And behind them will be the one with the sword, or the one wanting to raid the sanpro bin to put the tampons up their bums, and the one who wants to help little girls fit their tampons, and the ones who will photograph themselves wanking on the toilet next to you, and the ones who will tell you they're coming in, you can't stop them, and they'll rape/kill you if you look at them wrong.

They will all use the OP's words, claims and access to leverage their own. The very sad truth is, no gatekeeping of some males and not others is possible. There are no cards issued, no gatekeeping on the doors, if it is any single one male then it is all of them.

Females can only have female only, accessible spaces if no male at all is ever permitted to use them and males are capable of respecting female need, inclusion and access equally to their own.

And that brings me to the second thing that every nice TS MNetter has shown us here.

They all of them - all - listen to women explaining, the exclusion of females that is inevitable in order to meet unmet male need, why this does not work for women, why women cannot be the cloth to mop up for male human problems. And they all end as the OP has. In gently, even apologetically, informing that they have listened, and their decision is that they will just use women's spaces because they need to and wish to. Daddy has spoken.

And it's always that women will just have to be excluded and subordinated, because a male person is in need and sad and has problems. And good women would put them first anyway.

Now oddly enough, I'm not ok with that.

Very well put, thank you.

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 22:37

I am struggling to see in the OP where women’s plight is articulated. Talk is cheap. ‘I care about the safety of women’. What does that mean? What does it entail? ‘I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny’. What form does this misogyny take?

How is OP standing beside us?

I can’t see the common ground, only unsubstantiated claims.

I'm not accusing the OP of this, but I'm noting that we swim in misogyny, our whole society is saturated in it. And one of the rules of misogyny is:

'The worst thing about men's violence is that it makes men look bad'.

GailBlancheViola · 19/02/2023 22:42

That kind of unofficial 'arrangement' has been in operation for a long time, albeit without expressed consent.

The most important part of your justification for the status quo is this albeit without expressed consent - no consent equals what? Have a really good think think about that.

Women did not consent, women weren't even fucking asked, it was not discussed with women, women were not considered, women's right of consent was removed, ignored, disregarded.

The length of time women's consent has been treated with such disdain is irrelevant it is not a justification to continue doing so and all those who claim that are in effect saying that women's consent is meaningless, what does that sound like and where does that inevitably lead?

Women are now saying unequivocally and forcefully NO to any and all males in female spaces - no special cases, no ifs no buts, NONE.

Those who have disregarded women's consent and abused women's boundaries are absolutely going to be angry now having to hear the word NO - tough shit they should never have crossed that line in the first place and nor should those who enabled it.

terryleather · 19/02/2023 22:47

GailBlancheViola · 19/02/2023 22:42

That kind of unofficial 'arrangement' has been in operation for a long time, albeit without expressed consent.

The most important part of your justification for the status quo is this albeit without expressed consent - no consent equals what? Have a really good think think about that.

Women did not consent, women weren't even fucking asked, it was not discussed with women, women were not considered, women's right of consent was removed, ignored, disregarded.

The length of time women's consent has been treated with such disdain is irrelevant it is not a justification to continue doing so and all those who claim that are in effect saying that women's consent is meaningless, what does that sound like and where does that inevitably lead?

Women are now saying unequivocally and forcefully NO to any and all males in female spaces - no special cases, no ifs no buts, NONE.

Those who have disregarded women's consent and abused women's boundaries are absolutely going to be angry now having to hear the word NO - tough shit they should never have crossed that line in the first place and nor should those who enabled it.

What she said 👆🏻

ClaphamSouth · 19/02/2023 22:51

Hear, hear GailBlancheViola. Brava!

MenopausalMe · 19/02/2023 22:56

Message to the OP

No means No

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2023 23:00

GailBlancheViola · 19/02/2023 22:42

That kind of unofficial 'arrangement' has been in operation for a long time, albeit without expressed consent.

The most important part of your justification for the status quo is this albeit without expressed consent - no consent equals what? Have a really good think think about that.

Women did not consent, women weren't even fucking asked, it was not discussed with women, women were not considered, women's right of consent was removed, ignored, disregarded.

The length of time women's consent has been treated with such disdain is irrelevant it is not a justification to continue doing so and all those who claim that are in effect saying that women's consent is meaningless, what does that sound like and where does that inevitably lead?

Women are now saying unequivocally and forcefully NO to any and all males in female spaces - no special cases, no ifs no buts, NONE.

Those who have disregarded women's consent and abused women's boundaries are absolutely going to be angry now having to hear the word NO - tough shit they should never have crossed that line in the first place and nor should those who enabled it.

Gail speaks for a lot of us this evening

spirit20 · 19/02/2023 23:59

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 16:33

It’s shockingly misogynistic and anti-mother to suggest a father is capable of being to a child everything that a mother is. And fucking outrageous to say it on this forum.

It’s this transhumanist agenda Brave New World, where we are all meat sacks, no worse off for being made in test tubes and incubated by machines, our biological relationships, families are pointless, runs through transactivism.

It is essential to devalue that primary relationship to push the Overton Window and pave the way for surrogacy and novel sub-optimal family set ups, so that men can have whatever they want with no thought of how others are affected.

I have a friend whose mum died just after she was born and her dad did everything he could for her, managed so well, in spite of his grief. My friend is seriously needy and clingy and has attachment issues to this day though.

I'd rather a child be raised by two men than the majority of the women on this forum. They would be far better off.

pattihews · 20/02/2023 00:13

Oh, come on, you can do better than that. Tell us we're fat and ugly and smell at the very least.

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