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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rayner on the Isla Bryson case

243 replies

ResisterRex · 18/02/2023 20:46

It's like they don't want to win.

Angela Rayner: ‘I overshare. Keir Starmer undershares’

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a243ac9c-a7d0-11ed-999f-64d8c8a46b78?shareToken=bb096ff7b4ffc77b62d8a23af42fefd5

"Is Isla Bryson a woman? “The recent case?” Looking slightly thrown, she starts talking about guidelines, processes, safeguards, circumstances. “So from what I know about the case, I would not have been putting that person in a women-only prison.” But that wasn’t the question, so I ask again.

“Well, that person’s identifying as a woman now. But they’re right at the beginning of a transition — that they believe is right for them, however, and that’s fine. We respect that. That doesn’t mean to say by respecting it you instantly say, OK, well, that person then goes into a vulnerable space.”

Rayner keeps saying Bryson is “at the very start of the process” of becoming a woman, and keeps citing this as a reason why she should not be in a women’s jail. But Bryson began gender reassignment therapy back in 2020, shortly after she was charged. The SNP’s new Gender Recognition Reform Bill, which Labour voted for, would grant a gender recognition certificate (GRC) to any adult who declared they had been living in their acquired gender for just three months. In other words, had the law Rayner’s own party supports been in place when Bryson began her transition, she could by now have been legally female for more than two years. Even under the existing legislation, brought in by Labour in 2004, Bryson is by now eligible to apply for a GRC, although as far as anyone knows she does not have one. The Scottish Prison Service still remanded her to a women’s jail, though, because several years ago it quietly adopted a de facto self-ID policy — the very policy Rayner supports. By the logic of Rayner’s own stated beliefs, Bryson is categorically a woman.

Bryson, 31, claims to have known she was a woman since she was four. Does that mean she was a woman when she raped her victims? Rayner looks puzzled."

Continues at link

OP posts:
ExiledElsie · 19/02/2023 08:11

Starmer spoke about reforming the GRA towards self-id just 10 days ago.

This is the problem, no doubt that speech at an LGBT event was booked in months ago. As no doubt will have been many more similar events, there's so many throughout the year.

Maybe we should start inviting him and Rayner to speak at every women's event and see if they keep pushing self-id at those.

ExiledElsie · 19/02/2023 08:12

Oops, forgot the link, it's Daily Mail.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11728913/amp/Keir-Starmer-vows-make-easier-people-change-gender.html

Datun · 19/02/2023 08:12

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Sorry to disappoint but most people think we shouldn't be subjecting incarcerated women to the risk of rape by male sex offenders.

MarshaBradyo · 19/02/2023 08:13

I doubt Labour will change direction on this. It’s too entrenched. They’d new people to take over that don’t believe. A but like the antisemitism clear out.

DazzlePaintedBattlePants · 19/02/2023 08:13

She’s a simpleton who’s not fit for public office. Note, I don’t mean that because of her background but because she’s clearly unable to follow through on logically consistent ideas, and shows a complete lack of backbone when presented with a fairly tame journalist.

Labour, why are you making it so hard for me to vote for you?

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 08:15

Fine with the risk of sexual assaults from other females? Violent assaults from other females?

SinnerBoy · 19/02/2023 08:18

NaoiseNOTnoise · Today 07:13

So, you think that women being raped in prison doesn't matter, I see.

We live in a fairly civilised place and put people in prison, with being taken away from normal society as the punishment. Being stabbed, beaten, or raped isn't part of the punishment.

In fact, the prison service goes to some lengths to keep unpopular prisoners, such as rapists, away from the general population. It's not up to some psychopath to decide on some form of physical assault as extra punishment.

It also shouldn't be the case that prisons should wait and see what happens, then move them on and lock them up with another victim.

If you think that being raped, or murdered is an inevitable part of being imprisoned, you're very twisted.

hryllilegur · 19/02/2023 08:18

The problem is that the Tories have completely imploded, which means that labour don’t have to improve to win
an election.

so what we get is accusations that most people’s understanding and experience of the world is just ‘old fashioned ideas’. And not in alignment with that undefined classic ‘British values’.

Because encouraging children to late and medically/surgically mutilate their bodies is ‘British values’. As is making victims refer to their rapists as ‘she’.

or maybe Raynor wants to admit that ‘British values’ are about serving the needs and wants of men - and actually no one cares about women’s rights.

Floisme · 19/02/2023 08:20

Once again I'm reminded of that old Private Eye cover of Richard Nixon grinning all over his face and the caption 'No-one's going to shoot me with Spiro T Agnew next in line'

Boomboom22 · 19/02/2023 08:21

Good point about her early years and how that impacted her. In an interview about sure start she said they saved her as without them she would not have known it was important to hug your child and also read to them. Her mother was illiterate. However I don't know what sort of early years she had to not naturally know you should be hugging your kids so this could def explain her seeming inability to empathise with other people except seriously traumatised young trans people.

LizzieSiddal · 19/02/2023 08:21

@PretzelKnot · Today 08:10
I maintain that the photographer who took the shot of Bryson in pink leggings with his cock bulge front and centre should win a Pulitzer. That photo has started to change the world.

I agree, without that picture the public would not have paid half as much attention and the penny would not have dropped.
Transwoman equals a man with a cock is now clearly established with the public.

I want to thank that photographer.

MarshaBradyo · 19/02/2023 08:26

hryllilegur · 19/02/2023 08:18

The problem is that the Tories have completely imploded, which means that labour don’t have to improve to win
an election.

so what we get is accusations that most people’s understanding and experience of the world is just ‘old fashioned ideas’. And not in alignment with that undefined classic ‘British values’.

Because encouraging children to late and medically/surgically mutilate their bodies is ‘British values’. As is making victims refer to their rapists as ‘she’.

or maybe Raynor wants to admit that ‘British values’ are about serving the needs and wants of men - and actually no one cares about women’s rights.

It is concerning. It’ll probably take a loss for Labour to finally get it.

Without that it’ll change for the worse and I doubt will switch back.

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 08:26

Do we have assurances that there are no rapists in womens prisons in England and Wales right now?

I know there are some differences between there and Scotland but I'm curious how different the situation is?

ResisterRex · 19/02/2023 08:28

ExiledElsie · 19/02/2023 08:12

Curiously, there's no new words from Starmer in there.

At the same time, if this was wrong, Labour would (should) ask for a correction.

So either way, it signals a Labour commitment to rapists.

OP posts:
ExiledElsie · 19/02/2023 08:40

Presumably if there was any change of heart Rayner would have been aware. I really think they are in such a bubble of any dissent being transphobic that they can't see that the public know rapists are men.

howmanybicycles · 19/02/2023 08:52

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/02/2023 00:01

Sure, but I'm giving it as a pragmatic way forward for politicians who have already boxed themselves into a corner by saying TWAW. They already use the compromised language of gender ideology. Since they aren't going to do a public 180, I want to get them to a place they can defend single sex spaces . I want to show them that even within the genderist framework they can still protect single sex spaces.

I don't think it works though. It's still nonsense and I'd not trust any politicians talking like this. KS is apparently going to protect "safe' spaces - single.'sex' spaces afterbyouve redefined sex to be meaningless nonsense.

Apollo441 · 19/02/2023 08:52

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 08:15

Fine with the risk of sexual assaults from other females? Violent assaults from other females?

For the hard of thinking let me repeat, yet again. Males commit 99% of sexual crimes a fact that does not change with how they identify. This alone is enough reason to keep all males out of all spaces where women are vulnerable. Rape carries the added threat of pregnancy. Male assault on females carries a higher risk to the female due to strength discrepancy. So saying women do it too is no defence at all and a shameful deflection against an easily preventable assault.

Hooklander · 19/02/2023 08:54

LizzieSiddal · 19/02/2023 08:21

@PretzelKnot · Today 08:10
I maintain that the photographer who took the shot of Bryson in pink leggings with his cock bulge front and centre should win a Pulitzer. That photo has started to change the world.

I agree, without that picture the public would not have paid half as much attention and the penny would not have dropped.
Transwoman equals a man with a cock is now clearly established with the public.

I want to thank that photographer.

It's credited to Mike Gibbons, Spindrift agency in this article

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11680651/Transgender-rapist-Isla-Bryson-leaves-womens-prison-bars-male-unit.html

It was very interesting that the BBC and Guardian didn't show the penis part of the photograph. Very deceptive and partisan, one might think. The BBC's supposed 'impartiality' really is down the toilet now.

bellinisurge · 19/02/2023 08:59

She's so shit. I'm so disappointed they can't find a better woman to be deputy.
If she thinks "be kind" is still going to cut it come election time, she's delusional.
Kellie-Jay Keen is going to stand against Starmer in his constituency. If they think they can bluster their way through a news cycle and forget it, they will get a nasty wake up call.
Did they not see what happened to Sturgeon. Yes I know there are lots of factors that sank her but this was one. In broad daylight.
Life long Labour voter since 1987 (until Corbyn). Currently a ballot paper spoiler until someone gives me a reason not to.

Calmdown14 · 19/02/2023 09:04

Much as I did not support Nicola sturgeon's divisive politics, she is a very good politician. She ran rings round everyone (apart from perhaps Ruth Davidson) and was as competent at dealing with the press or a difficult question as anyone I've ever seen.

And yet this reduced her to a bumbling idiot. Because you cannot square the city, particularly when you actively rejected amendments to avoid situations like Isla Bryson.

I don't think this is ultimately the cause of her departure though and agree with PP that this is the time to keep up the pressure.
The leaked Stewart MacDonald emails are rumoured to contain information which might shed more light.

I have little faith in polling for labour if they can't get this right. I quite like Keir Starmer and suspect (bit like Nicola) that he isn't fully in this but didn't want to challenge the more difficult aspects of his party or lose the young vote.

I grew up in the same area as Angela Raynor and she should represent me but I find her cringe worthy.

SinnerBoy · 19/02/2023 09:06

LizzieSiddal · Today 08:21

Transwoman equals a man with a cock is now clearly established with the public.

There are still a lot of people who think: Fake trans trying to get an easy ride in jail, real trans, lovely and fluffy.

Boomboom22 · 19/02/2023 09:06

Another reason labour will get in, spoiling the ballot is the same as voting for Labour. The tories are almost trying to get out with their current performance. Not that anyone really wants the current incarnation to stay. If only the wep had gone the way I thought it would but no totally captured. I didn't expect that of sandi.

highame · 19/02/2023 09:15

There's an oddity at the moment with how opinion polls are being presented. About a month ago I listened to him talking about the voting splits and he made the comment that there was a large number of 'don't knows' he suggested that this was a larger amount than usual. It seems that many of these 'don't knows' are fed up of the Tories but equally don't trust Labour. It seems that this large number and I think it has been around 30% is what can screw up any certainties.

It adds a little interest to the debate and might also be why KS is a bit jumpy about people getting too sure about a win for Labour.

highame · 19/02/2023 09:16

Sorry, the Him is Sir John Curtis, pollster extraordinaire

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2023 09:16

howmanybicycles · 19/02/2023 08:52

I don't think it works though. It's still nonsense and I'd not trust any politicians talking like this. KS is apparently going to protect "safe' spaces - single.'sex' spaces afterbyouve redefined sex to be meaningless nonsense.

This. I know I keep banging on about it, but the Labour Sex Fudge is the most dishonest and disingenuous idea I've heard since Sturgeon claimed Bryson was rapistgender.

Labour are claiming that they will support single sex spaces while also claiming that sex is a matter of choice.

Infuriatingly, this pish about 'safe spaces' deliberately omits 'single sex' for a reason.

Labour don't believe in sex. They are genderists all the way down.