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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rayner on the Isla Bryson case

243 replies

ResisterRex · 18/02/2023 20:46

It's like they don't want to win.

Angela Rayner: ‘I overshare. Keir Starmer undershares’

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a243ac9c-a7d0-11ed-999f-64d8c8a46b78?shareToken=bb096ff7b4ffc77b62d8a23af42fefd5

"Is Isla Bryson a woman? “The recent case?” Looking slightly thrown, she starts talking about guidelines, processes, safeguards, circumstances. “So from what I know about the case, I would not have been putting that person in a women-only prison.” But that wasn’t the question, so I ask again.

“Well, that person’s identifying as a woman now. But they’re right at the beginning of a transition — that they believe is right for them, however, and that’s fine. We respect that. That doesn’t mean to say by respecting it you instantly say, OK, well, that person then goes into a vulnerable space.”

Rayner keeps saying Bryson is “at the very start of the process” of becoming a woman, and keeps citing this as a reason why she should not be in a women’s jail. But Bryson began gender reassignment therapy back in 2020, shortly after she was charged. The SNP’s new Gender Recognition Reform Bill, which Labour voted for, would grant a gender recognition certificate (GRC) to any adult who declared they had been living in their acquired gender for just three months. In other words, had the law Rayner’s own party supports been in place when Bryson began her transition, she could by now have been legally female for more than two years. Even under the existing legislation, brought in by Labour in 2004, Bryson is by now eligible to apply for a GRC, although as far as anyone knows she does not have one. The Scottish Prison Service still remanded her to a women’s jail, though, because several years ago it quietly adopted a de facto self-ID policy — the very policy Rayner supports. By the logic of Rayner’s own stated beliefs, Bryson is categorically a woman.

Bryson, 31, claims to have known she was a woman since she was four. Does that mean she was a woman when she raped her victims? Rayner looks puzzled."

Continues at link

OP posts:
PermanentTemporary · 18/02/2023 23:03

Of course they've done the polling. Of course they fucking have! Don't be naive.

Young people are overwhelmingly unlikely to vote Tory at the moment.

Young people are much more likely to believe TWAW.

Theyve done the polling and they are doing what they think will win the election. I'm as GC as anyone, in fact I'd say I'm quite an extremist in my own way, but I hope I have a realistic view of politics. If you think 'everyone is GC' you'll continue to be shocked by events.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 18/02/2023 23:04

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Yeah yeah yeah….😒

WinterTrees · 18/02/2023 23:04

Let's not forget Angela Rayner smugly tweeting that she was keeping a space on the green benches for Lily 'savile's apprentice' Madigan.

That's how sound Rayner's judgement is.

ArabellaScott · 18/02/2023 23:12

This Angela Rayner?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/26/angela-rayner-stands-by-remarks-calling-tories-scum

Horrible person.

ElliF · 18/02/2023 23:13

AutumnCrow · 18/02/2023 22:59

Anyway, yes I think Rayner has ended up being even more incoherent that Sturgeon over this.

She’s terrified of forming opinions, about anything it would appear, and isn’t capable of communicating clearly with the press.

Boiledbeetle · 18/02/2023 23:27

How can she believe something and want legislation changed for that belief but be unable to articulate why Isla has to go in the men's prison?

I mean what is the problem with this particular transwoman?

Why are so many of the true faithful having such an issue with the double rapist transwoman?

ArabellaScott · 18/02/2023 23:28

PermanentTemporary · 18/02/2023 23:03

Of course they've done the polling. Of course they fucking have! Don't be naive.

Young people are overwhelmingly unlikely to vote Tory at the moment.

Young people are much more likely to believe TWAW.

Theyve done the polling and they are doing what they think will win the election. I'm as GC as anyone, in fact I'd say I'm quite an extremist in my own way, but I hope I have a realistic view of politics. If you think 'everyone is GC' you'll continue to be shocked by events.

Do you think? Because, you see, this is exactly what the SNP's line was up until recent weeks.

I'm not saying they aren't leading, clearly they are. But if they think the general public are on board with TWAW, they are fooling themselves.

StaunchMomma · 18/02/2023 23:29

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Right, cus prisoners shouldn't have human rights? Who gives a shit if they get raped? They broke the law!!

Why not just torture them and be done with it.

ladygindiva · 18/02/2023 23:29

ditalini · 18/02/2023 21:30

She's a fucking coward. They all are.

I don't believe she credits it for a minute but she's seen what happens to women who don't conform and she doesn't want that to happen to her.

And she's happy to throw vulnerable women under the bus to protect her political capital. Gutless.

100% agree with this. She's yet another career politician.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 18/02/2023 23:32

Young people are overwhelmingly unlikely to vote Tory at the moment absolutely, 2 of my 3 would vote labour and the other wouldn’t vote tory

Young people are much more likely to believe TWAW all three are very aware TW are not W

TheirEminence · 18/02/2023 23:39

But she doesn’t seem to have interrogated her own position on this issue very thoroughly at all, and looks increasingly confused when I try to.

This is very polite and very damning at the same time.

Also, how utterly callous to suggest that being sexually abused with “some implementation” wielded by a woman is the same as being raped by a man. Pictures of Isla Bryson made it very clear that this was a huge, bulky male who would have used his strength and weight to impose himself on his victims. I do agree with the TRAs that the focus on penises is a bit silly; it’s about the male body attached to it. Always male, never female. Rayner is just playing dumb. Dishonest.

howmanybicycles · 18/02/2023 23:42

FlirtsWithRhinos · 18/02/2023 21:54

The thing is, it's so fucking simple to accept trans identities without throwing The People Formerly Known As Women under a bus.

Out of the goodness of my heart, I offer this script to politicians looking for a path through this mess.

"Yes of course TWAW (1). In the bad old days we just thought it was about biological sex but we know now that sex/gender is a 《super complicated hand wavy thing(2)》and that being a women is really about how you feel inside.

"However, the fact remains that these old fashioned ideas about sex, misguided though they may be, are deeply ingrained in society and they do create genuine disadvantages and risks for people who in less enlightened times would be classed as women because of their body.

"So my party makes a clear commitment to maintain the single sex provisions as single sex, reserved for people born female until society has moved on to the point they are no longer needed.

"At the same time, my party also commits unequivocally to introducing new protections and support for women of both sexes, and new protections and support for trans people of all genders, to deal with the challenges these groups face that are unique to them. Because they deserve more than just the old fashioned single sex facilities with a new sign on the door. They deserve to be heard and seen in their own right, not simply lumped in with everyone else who is not a cis man."

(1) TWANW. But a politician who has previously stated they are, or who knows a significant number of their potential voters won't accept anything less than TWAW, we need to find a path forward that doesn't require them to now state TWANW.

(2) I had to give up here because any description of sex/gender that one TRA gives is instantly rejected by all the others. The putative politicians will just have to fill that bit in by themselves.

I find this really offensive. There are not two sexes of women and you should not assume the identity (cis) of men. Irs actually simple by saying men can identify as feminine and call themselves trans, but single sex spaces are for people who are actually female (I.e. identified as female at birth)

ElliF · 18/02/2023 23:43

Boiledbeetle · 18/02/2023 23:27

How can she believe something and want legislation changed for that belief but be unable to articulate why Isla has to go in the men's prison?

I mean what is the problem with this particular transwoman?

Why are so many of the true faithful having such an issue with the double rapist transwoman?

Hypocrisy and virtue signalling? The usual ‘woke’ rhetoric and dogma.

MarshaBradyo · 18/02/2023 23:48

ArabellaScott · 18/02/2023 23:28

Do you think? Because, you see, this is exactly what the SNP's line was up until recent weeks.

I'm not saying they aren't leading, clearly they are. But if they think the general public are on board with TWAW, they are fooling themselves.

I was going to say SNP too. It all looks great with polling until this stuff gets you. Happened to Penny M too who had good polling.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/02/2023 00:01

howmanybicycles · 18/02/2023 23:42

I find this really offensive. There are not two sexes of women and you should not assume the identity (cis) of men. Irs actually simple by saying men can identify as feminine and call themselves trans, but single sex spaces are for people who are actually female (I.e. identified as female at birth)

Sure, but I'm giving it as a pragmatic way forward for politicians who have already boxed themselves into a corner by saying TWAW. They already use the compromised language of gender ideology. Since they aren't going to do a public 180, I want to get them to a place they can defend single sex spaces . I want to show them that even within the genderist framework they can still protect single sex spaces.

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 00:03

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ProstheticConscience · 19/02/2023 00:09

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

Are you advocating for rape to be an additional punishment for female prisoners, as well as being incarcerated? Or just posting outrageous drivel to stir people up? 🤔 Oh it is half term isn't it.

elgreco · 19/02/2023 00:37

Naoise is a man's name.

CountZacular · 19/02/2023 00:39

I’ve asked this before but who are they actually pandering to? Because it certainly isn’t TRAs and their allies.

LOJ has been fixated with demonising KS for the past year for being too centrist and not left enough. TRAs think Labour are actually TERF bigots ( If their shouting of ‘fuck KS’ at a vigil of a murdered child doesn’t show that what will?). The general public are starting to question this. I’ve heard strangers having conversations about Isla Bryson on the bus which I’d never expected before!

Labour are a shoe-in without doing anything and would have to screw up rather spectacularly to not win the next election after the shit of Tories. But despite that they still seem to be trying rather hard to become laughing stocks to the general public and I don’t know what the point is. Who is it for?

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 00:46

ProstheticConscience · 19/02/2023 00:09

Are you advocating for rape to be an additional punishment for female prisoners, as well as being incarcerated? Or just posting outrageous drivel to stir people up? 🤔 Oh it is half term isn't it.

Can you tell me exactly where I said that? Cant rape or be raped if you are locked in your cell 24 hours a day.

OneLongSmorgasbord · 19/02/2023 01:12

NaoiseNOTnoise · 19/02/2023 00:46

Can you tell me exactly where I said that? Cant rape or be raped if you are locked in your cell 24 hours a day.

You can if your cellmate is a male rapist.

Would you want a loved one of yours locked up in prison with Isla Bryson or similar? And to have an extra punishment of being raped on top of being incarcerated?

I'm sure you'll say none of your family would do anything to be jailed but you don't know that for sure, no one does.

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2023 01:31

NaoiseNOTnoise · Yesterday 22:42

Here's an idea, if you don't want to be locked in with rapists and killers, stop committing crimes. Do ypu know how hard women have to fail to actually get a custodial sentence? Just like you have, they have every excuse made for them so often female prisoners are horrible horrible horrible people.

Not just thrown I jail for stealing a bar of chocolate

and what about the completely innocent ones?

Seema Misra who was pregnant with her second child when she was convicted of theft and sent to jail in 2010.

"If I hadn't had been pregnant, I definitely would have killed myself," she said. "It was the worst thing. It was so shameful."

Seema is one of the hundreds of Post Office workers - mainly sub-postmasters - who were accused of theft after using the Post Office Horizon IT system, which is provided by Fujitsu.

Seema was sent to Bronzefield Prison, where she was locked up with "drug addicts and people self-harming".

Or

Tracy Felstead was just 19 when she was sent to Holloway Prison, which once housed the likes of Myra Hindley and Rose West.

She was accused of stealing £11,503.28 - a number that seems to have been engraved into her memory - while working at Camberwell Green Post Office.

While in jail, she saw a girl who had hanged herself.

The after-effects for Tracy have been severe. Because of the conviction, she lost her job and her house. She is having counselling.

Or

Rubbina Shaheen. She ran the Greenfields post office in Shrewsbury and was convicted and jailed in 2010.

"When he [the judge] said I'm going to prison, I was just totally devastated. I didn't know what to say, what to do, honestly."

3 women completely innocent, but you'd have them having the prospect of being raped assaulted or murdered by a man in prison as an added extra on top of their sentence for crimes they didn't commit.

I am disgusted by your opinion.

Ramblingnamechanger · 19/02/2023 01:55

Well said Boiled.

Ramblingnamechanger · 19/02/2023 01:56

But I don’t think any woman deserves additional punishment.

WhereYouLeftIt · 19/02/2023 02:12

ditalini · 18/02/2023 21:30

She's a fucking coward. They all are.

I don't believe she credits it for a minute but she's seen what happens to women who don't conform and she doesn't want that to happen to her.

And she's happy to throw vulnerable women under the bus to protect her political capital. Gutless.

Having read that article, I wonder if there's something else going on inside her head. Less cowardice, more a serious lacking.

Her early life is horrendous. About as hard as I have ever heard of.

I have known people who have gone through shit and afterwards, seem to almost sneer at anyone who hasn't. They measure other people against what they themselves have overcome, and are dismissive of other people's struggles because 'I've had it far harder'. They also tend to follow it up with something along the lines of 'and I turned out OK' - but I don't think they did turn out OK. I think what they went through damaged them. I don't know if the grinding hardship just directly damaged their ability to empathise, or if to get through it they had to shut it down deliberately and concentrate on personal survival only. Either way, throwing other people under the bus caused them no qualms. Absolutely none. I don't think they even saw it as throwing people under the bus, they just dismissed it as 'necessary'.

It's hard to tell which camp Rayner falls into, but having read of her early life, I'm not sure her view of women in prison would be anywhere near my view. I suspect her 'I've been through far more' kicks in and she sees them as far lesser beings than herself - 'losers' to her 'winner'. And that being incarcerated with rapist and murdering males she still thinks is - less than she's been through, so they should just suck it upSad. So it's not even that she doesn't care, it's that she's incapable of feeling for anyone who doesn't match her in the Hard Life Stakes. And equally incapable of putting herself in anyone else's shoes, which is why she can't see how anyone can think differently from her.

I will also say that it's just as possible that the people I knew had the seeds of being self-serving bastards all along and the hardships they endured were coincidental; since I've also known other people have tough experiences and come out the other end wanting to protect and prevent it happening to anyone else. I don't see Rayner wanting to protect anyone except herself.