Maya’s response to Radical Notion’s GC divisions

[HiccupHorrendousHaddock]

I thought this was a very interesting answer to the recent issue of RN.

Shout out to the vipers and their Mumsnet Feminism within!

mforstater.medium.com/on-gender-critical-disputes-db2e456ad9cd

I'm not really talking about tone policing. Rather about effective communications. As an example, I was in a work conversation this afternoon where a late 20s young woman said "I don't want to be a Karen but......" and made her point.

I had to focus hard to hear her point, because I am of the generation she would consider a Karen. I am pretty on board with listening to people and to trying to get to the points they are making and it put my back up.

If feminism is to make any ground it needs to be heard and audible.

Can I just say I'm loving this thread, so many perspectives, it's great.
I agree that when the 'laddette' culture/girl power thing came along that was when it all started to go horribly wrong. And as someone who doesn't have kids, I'm very aware of how hard it is to have a career and bring up a family too. I don't know how women do it. Being a carer for my mum was bad enough. Women still bare the burden of so much of the caring responsibilities.

Maya has just been banned from Medium for this essay. Cancel culture is real and Medium are a disgrace. On what possible grounds?

Error message now on Maya Forstater's Medium Account! 😡

"This account is under investigation or was found in violation of the Medium Rules."

Lucky that I archived her article 🙂

archive.ph/PXjiP

What?!! That's RIDICULOUS. I wonder if she was reported

Maya's article moved to her own website now 💚💟💜

hiyamaya.net/2023/02/09/on-gender-critical-disputes/

I hope it wasn't feminists that reported her. We'll never know.

Wonderful thread - thank you.

"We do not allow calls for [...] exclusion or segregation based on protected characteristics."

So no single sex spaces. No lesbian dating apps. No limiting school attendance or membership of scouts and guides to children. Maternity leave and antenatal classes for all. And I'll be claiming my pension tomorrow despite a birth certificate that claims I'm depressingly far from retirement.

But it's fine for men to exclude women unable to use the women's space those men have just turned mixed sex?

Right.....

Batshit. Never ending incoherent batshit.

For me it is the word that is never used in academic discussion which is love. Caring for somebody else more than yourself. A hugely powerful thing that can only work to the benefit of societies.

Beautifully put, @JoodyBlue , and the bit that cool queer transgressive pomo culture can never emulate or simulate.

"We do not allow calls for [...] exclusion or segregation based on protected characteristics."

With the further irony that they have just excluded MAYA FORSTATER of all people based on her protected belief.

Do they feel lucky? Well, do they?

Maya thinks Medium banned her because she linked to the article "Pronouns are Rohypnol" on the Fair Play for Women website:

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1623757018979790859

It’s so depressing that this ridiculous equivalence has grown up between racial segregation and single sex spaces. The idea is to paint women as the “oppressor” - eg the white people trying to stop black people joining their country club. Whereas the real comparison is with affirmative action scholarships, black sororities and colleges, and so on.

You betcha that none of the “folk” at Medium pushing this line would dare come out and say they think affirmative action scholarships for African-Americans is “segregation based on protected characteristics”.

That doesn’t even touch on the provisions in the Equality Act, presumably because Medium think they don’t have to take account of U.K. law.

I’ll wait to hear Medium’s case against disabled loos being “segregation based on protected characteristics”; likewise the Paralympics, or Catholic seminaries, or OAP discounts. Or is it just women whose spaces are considered “segregation”, and not any other protected characteristics?

The segregation nonsense would only work if it was against sex separation in any context.

It isn't. The argument is that it's fine to exclude MOST men, but not THOSE men because Reasons. (And we identify as this not harming or excluding women from any space so men can have all the spaces).

No, it's really not like <stuff appropriated, wholly not properly researched or understood historical simile here with total disregard for the offensiveness to the people it actually happened to and inappropriacy of weaponising their trauma. To borrow a bit of the burble>

I wonder if she was reported

I wonder who reported it.

Notes scribbled this morning:

Love Gina Rippon and have read her book.

It does strike me that the left is as infected with men's rights activists as the right. So are the greens.

Green / eco strategies or politics are generally agreed on by both left and right in the U.K, as sensible and obvious necessities, based on science (routes may differ). Women's rights should be seen in a similar fashion based on biology.

So upset I've lost a couple of articles which would be relevant to the thread 😭.
Re pregnancy and brains - apparently womens brains change structurally during pregnancy and this lasts for up to two years. Male brains can also change as a result of their care giving / bonding with baby but not on such a grand scale.

The more time a male spends with baby the more this occurs (iirc testosterone also reduced?) so can be seen also in male gay couples adopting (our friends are next week!)

I thought it was increased oxytocin in men.

Yes I think maybe so. Annoyed I've lost the article

I don’t buy that some men don’t see rape culture. I’m sure they could if they bothered to look. E.g. they’ll watch porn or have friends who do, right? It’s everywhere in mainstream culture anyway.

The whole point of this sex/gender conversation is keeping words like female and patriarchy meaningful so that we can accurately describe power dynamics and name our oppressors.

We are the majority. Men who can’t cope with words like patriarchy aren’t going to be helpful, so pandering to them is a waste of time.

I wonder if calling it ‘porn culture’ is more efficient?

Rape is a very serious crime and most humans would shy away from accusations that we were implicit in a very serious crime we didn’t directly commit*

But most men know that porn is bad for men as well as for women, they know it destroys erectile function and that porn use makes relationships with sexual and romantic partners strained, that porn is a direct contributor to relationship breakdown.

Plus men are increasingly developing a male-specific type of body dysmorphic disorder (sometimes called ‘bigorexia’) and the idealised male body types in mainstream porn feed that insecurity (it is no coincidence that the repugnant (in all ways) Ron Jeremy was such a big name in financial heyday of porn).

Plus the influence of porn on mainstream celebrity culture is undeniably visible,
so much so that ‘pornified’ and ‘pornification’ are words now.

*I’m thinking of that survey where a horrific amount of young men admitted pressuring a woman into sex they knew full well she didn’t want to have but still adamantly denied being rapists (despite non consensual penetration with a penis being the very definition of rape).

My guess is that you don't have any strong relationships with men to be quite that shirty. But if my OH spoke to me in an equivalently sexist fashion about Women who can't cope with words like xxxx (take your pick) our relationship wouldn't last 2 minutes.

I am talking about effective communication. I am flippin riled by your post. It doesn't make the point the way you think it does.

@ShireWifeofNigelFarage I think those points are well made and yes I think it works better "porn culture" . Although I take the point made upthread that patriarchy still describes many societies globally and I see that too. I am arguing that it is less useful as a term now in the west because of the successes of 2nd wave feminism. If feminists don't stop and take stock success can be overidden. I think this is happening/has happened.

My guess is that you don't have any strong relationships with men to be quite that shirty. But if my OH spoke to me in an equivalently sexist fashion about Women who can't cope with words like xxxx (take your pick) our relationship wouldn't last 2 minutes.

I think perhaps you miss what that post says about you and all the other women who have to be careful what they say around men in order to maintain relationships. To have a strong relationship with men women can't express their shirty side, eh?