Maya’s response to Radical Notion’s GC divisions

[HiccupHorrendousHaddock]

I thought this was a very interesting answer to the recent issue of RN.

Shout out to the vipers and their Mumsnet Feminism within!

mforstater.medium.com/on-gender-critical-disputes-db2e456ad9cd

Could anyone well-read on here enlighten us on what radical feminism has to say about breastfeeding?

in part backlash was through the inability to bring men into the conversation in a way that the sexes could understand each other rather than blame each other.

Joody – this is interesting can you elaborate on this? I also feel that we came closer to equal but then regressed due to 1) division in feminism and unintended consequences and 2) backlash from men as you say.

Re the unintended consequences of feminism, this brought division between women especially regarding motherhood as in Bernard’s points. Second and third wave feminism was about behaving like a man, getting into the workplace, having sex like a man etc, which leads to “lean in” where women can’t just be, in a nurturing state with a newborn, but have to be ambitious in absolutely everything. Fourth wave feminism now acknowledges that men and women are different, our biology, sexuality etc and this must be respected and the dial needs to shift towards us, essentially equity rather than equality. We don’t want to emulate men; we want power and freedom on our own terms.

I see the backlash from men as being partially due to a split in public/private life, exacerbated by the internet. As a woman it feels like you are living a double life sometimes, and men only see one side. Women are free to access economic power (up until motherhood), they outperform men at university and more women are in positions of influence. There are contained boxes where sexism is understood and condemned, such as sexual harassment or condescension in the workplace and male violence against women. And yet it continues, despite encouragements to report such behaviours. Rape is essentially decriminalised. Institutions such as the police, meant to protect you, will harm you. Male MPs might discuss VAWG one day then next day they’ll be watching porn in the chambers. Porn’s ubiquity has shaped a generation of male and female sexuality which subordinates women. Both men and women struggle to understand a healthy female sexuality because it is not represented anywhere.

Feminists have always been able to connect the dots but are often not listened to. So I’m not sure that it’s their inability to bring men into the conversation so much as men’s unwillingness to listen, especially because they see women as already having enough (in public life). They don’t want to give us more, even though it will benefit them because feminism improves the sex relations.

Basically misogyny is more condemned in public life yet prolific in private life.

I worked outside the home too - I think it did save my sanity, cos being with small kids 24/7 is quite draining for many women. But amazing childcare and they were never off my mind, while working. But my OH said same. So I'm not arguing that women shouldn't work when they become mothers, but that motherhood and it various choices should be supported. And so should fatherhood 😁

I feel that we need a radical feminist reimagining of how society can be structured, but in such a way that doesn’t mean mothers have to endure painful separation from their children, or women don’t have to forgo motherhood, in order to have financial, social and political power. I think it is possible now that we have the internet, conference calls, etc.

In my fantasies, I imagine a ‘mothers chamber’ in parliament, like the House of Lords, where mothers can oversee, block and suggest amendments to legislation….

@thedankness I agree with your post pretty much word for word.

I think Helen Joyce recommends a book called something like "Getting to Yes" (sorry not more specific). The subject matter though is about influencing and being able to first be heard, and then negotiate best case for each party involved in a discussion, often through compromise.

My instinctive kick against the word "partriarchy" is that I see that it turns my lovely, kind, strong, funny, caring OH right off. I see this in many of his contemporaries and also in my sons. I saw it in my father. It feels like shouting at them pre-emptively and therefore is counterproductive.

Party I think sexism harms men as much as women. But with women the scars are more obvious. Does that make sense? Men need to be able to open up into their emotions etc. where they want to. Many do.

Actually what I've just written above would extend to the current wave of social justice activism generally.

@EndlessTea I was the pre-pregnant woman who swore she would never go to a mum's coffee morning. Then 7 weeks into motherhood of no sleep, struggling to feed, recovering from C-section I went to one. There was a group of women who had a common purpose, caring for kids. We would support everyone in the group without exception in that common purpose, no questions asked.

Decades on, I am still friends with the 3 with whom I had interests other than childrearing. One is a person, whom I am very close to, and whom I never would previously have spoken to outside a baby group because we were opposed politically in almost every way. Over the years neither of us has changed our fundamental views but we have learned so much from each other - listening sensitively and taking turns to speak started sitting on the floor of a church hall.

This is where I think men having paternity leave and encouraging them to work part time is really important. Yes the idea of equal paternity leave instinctively sounds ridiculous because men do not need to physically heal from the huge process of giving birth, they're not breastfeeding etc. But it makes childrearing and working not a "women's issue" but a parents issue. And it also allows pooling of resources as is meant to be in a family structure: the women can let her body heal, if she is breastfeeding she will likely be sleep deprived, so the man can take the lion's share of domestic work to support her. If she is bottle feeding the man can share the burden of waking up in the middle of the night.

The focus on motherhood and work is annoys me so much and is such a burden on women because it's two people deciding to have a child!

there's the economics of it though -- my babies were not easy raisers!!! But partly looking back, the tiredness and the struggle of it all was part of the bonding process perhaps - maybe just rose tinted glasses now

I think sexism harms men as much as women. But with women the scars are more obvious. Does that make sense? Men need to be able to open up into their emotions etc. where they want to. Many do.

I think in our culture, where there is relative parity, it can look this way on the surface, but when you dig deeper, it’s a false equivalence. I am not losing ‘patriarchy’ from my lexicon, even though I know it tends to put men on the back foot.

Having said that I think that the sexism exhibited by men like Bill Maher, Hugh Hefner, Andrew Tate, etc - that women are inferior, merely objects to be used, abused and discarded by men, is harmful for men.

Men get security, purpose and meaning from fatherhood, (and inner peace) and (although he can be a bit of a waffling windbag), I like the fact that Jordan Peterson is trying to help young men see that. The BM/HH/AT type of sexism, basically promoting pathological attachment issues in men, serves to untether men from having a lovely life.

@JoodyBlue Yes I completely see that - all of us naturally get defensive when accused. And I'm worried about the backlash against social justice activism because whilst it deserves plenty of criticism, there are valid points in there. For example I heard Andrew Doyle (fantastic on trans issue) say there's no evidence of rape culture in society and that's just another form of extreme ideology.

@EndlessTea last post is spot on!

I think there is rape culture for sure, but it is in pockets that many decent men don't get to see in their day to day life and so can and do ignore - perhaps willfully. There is a rape culture in certain police forces etc and in many areas of the UK and in many professions. I don't deny it. I am saying though that our comms need to get smarter. The AMALT model is not getting the message over. Quite the opposite.

I've really enjoyed talking with you guys today. Need to get a bit of work done though 😁

I can't agree that second wave feminism was about 'behaving like a man' (I'll conceed the point on 3rd much of the wave).

They wanted the same rights and opportunities as men, but certainly not to behave like them. Indeed, they didn't want men to behave 'like men' as it was understood at the time, never mind joining in!

Dismantling patriarchal systems and beliefs; separatist and political lesbian movements; all the work against domestic violence, sexual harassment, pornography; the wages for housework movement which believed that traditional 'women's' work should not be womens only choice but that those who chose it should be valued and paid. None of these were about behaving like men.

Our comms need to get smarter - absolutely!

Me too lol. Will catch up with this thread later 🙂

I'm with Binturong on that. I went to university in 1979 and the feminism I encountered at the time, and in the early 80s, was a feminism that wanted equal access to opportunities and all women allowed choices in their lives. It certainly wasn't that we wanted to be like men.

It wasn't until the late 80s and early 90s that, living and working in London, I noticed ladette culture masquerading as feminism. In 1995 I was managing a growing team of new graduates and if the subject of feminism came up the young women were all 'I'm not a feminist' unless the talk was about sex, when they concluded that feminism was about being able to sleep around and drink like men. I was only in my mid 30s and I was already being treated like a hairy-legged dinosaur by the young feminist/ not feminist brigade.

In 2003 or 2004 I went to a feminist conference and found myself surrounded by third-wavers who brought along their boyfriends and talked about being kind and being queer. One of them told me my nanna feminism was irrelevant. Not long after that I attended a 'How can second wavers and third wavers bridge the divide?' event. By that time Women's Studies had been almost completely overtaken by Gender Studies and the gender rot was well-established.

Agree that a great proportion of second-wave feminism was very concerned with motherhood - female communities, biological mothering, childcare and so on. There was a distinct split in second wave writing between those who centred feminism on childbearing and community (eg hooks); and those who sought technological freedoms from that (eg Firestone) — but overall, second wave feminism tended to be oriented towards motherhood, the domestic and the biological as a central part of political and communal action; and third wave away from that and towards the workplace and public sphere.

Bring back ‘Nanna Feminism’ I say!

Seconded.

My Nan once broomed Peter Lilley MP off her doorstep.

Nannas are awesome.

I agree with @BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn - 2nd wave feminism wasn't at all about acting like a man.

I think the ladette 3rd wave bollocks about 'girl power' etc was when mainstream feminism took a wrong turn. Individualism rather than class analysis, calling patriarchal bullshit "empowering women."

As Ryan Gosling says in Crazy Stupid Love "The war between the sexes is over. We won the second women started doing pole dancing for exercise."

That 1990s stuff wasn’t feminism though was it? It was a backlash against feminism branded as feminism. Lads mags, wonderbras, high heels, casual sexism, normalisation of porn, stripping, prostitution, waxing pubes.
It was so sad. Young women brainwashed into thinking that getting contemptuous male attention was the best they could hope for. Women were seen as pointless and their only value was fuckability, and even when the Spice Girls came out at the end of the 1990s, it was in spite of a belief that there was no demand for a girl band, because only boy bands could get traction.
In the 80s women got comedy gigs because they were talented - French and Saunders, Cathy Burke, Victoria Wood. In the 1990s ‘ladette icon’ Ulrika Johnsson got a residency on Shooting Stars because she was pretty and blonde and Bob Mortimer fancied her. It really was a depressing time for feminism.

@EndlessTea agreed!

It’s the difference between saying that having children and diverting time, effort and resources to them is a good thing, and saying because it’s a good thing every woman should do it

Agree!

I also don't want to lose the term patriarchy-it would end up being what Betty Friedan coined, "the problem that has no name."

I know men can get defensive but their hurt feelings shouldn't be our concern (outside personal relationships). If something is important for women as a class, we need to advocate for us. I understand that how we talk about it can have favorable or unfavorable results and I always advocate for persuasive tactics...but if we get upset about women tone policing other women, not sure why we should be concerned with tone policing ourselves around men.

My understanding of the second wave comes largely from reading intensively about the era and the books by feminists who were active then, and of course any broad-brush conclusions are just that, but to me the overriding argument was that being female should not mean that we are not entitled to have lives as full human beings.

That meant wanting the same opportunities and rights as men had, but also that the specific needs which come with having a female body and the role of the one who creates the next generation are properly taken into account.

As an aside, I believe that the first wave and the second wave both created significant change (though the first wave really wasn't the very first wave etc.), but that the waves after the second are more ripples than waves, i.e., history is unlikely to see them as equally significant to the second wave. So we are yet to see the true third wave, though sometimes I think it may be beginning now? Perhaps futile optimism.

Real feminism is happening elsewhere in the world, in South Korea, Thailand and so on, and what I have learned about it is that it is more like the second wave than whatever the current number of waves here might be. That would be because the initial situation resembles more the situation before the second wave in the West. -- Afghanistan etc. are probably not in that category but in needing their real first wave.

We need the word 'patriarchy', because there are still countries in which it is baked into everything from religions and laws to culture and tradition. And in some places it is getting stronger.

So we are yet to see the true third wave, though sometimes I think it may be beginning now? Perhaps futile optimism.

I really think we are.

I feel that the attack on what it means to be female has made a lot of people notice women’s inferior social standing, how most people prefer men and boys, even in the West. It’s a historical moment of clarity.

Seeing the rally in Glasgow at the weekend, hearing the speeches, how viscerally this is felt and how vibrant the energy.

We now have the internet, social media, etc, and people are getting really adept at quickly editing and disseminating info - that video by Alice the Journalist.

It’s a return to the material reality of being women, like the first and second waves, but with this new tech. In my opinion it is attracting new people. Its an evolution of second wave ideas and it’s pretty exciting, because we’re in a place where we can say “that was of it’s time”, “that worked well”, “that had a load of unintended consequences”, “that was really prescient”, etc, but we aren’t quite sure where it will lead.