Navigating ‘school gates’ conversations with other parents

[Toomie]

My son's only just in reception and it’s started already.

Met up for the first time with a couple of other school mums and our reception aged kids at soft play yesterday afternoon. I don’t know them very well but they both seem quite sound. One mentioned that one of their older DS’s friends (year 2 or 3) identifies as non-binary and the conversation turned that way for a while.

We didn’t get into any depth but there was a definite conflation of T with LGB and general assumption that all things T related are progressive and good. There was also a weird sort of excitement about it all, with one saying ‘my daughter sometimes says she wants to be a boy’ and the other saying her youngest son liked playing with my little ponies, and she “wouldn’t be surprised if he grows up to be not a normal ‘boy boy’ but a drag queen or something” but she would draw the line at puberty blockers.

I bit my tongue as hard as possible and tried to just listen but did try to gently say something about ‘isn’t it all based on stereotypes?’ to which they both laughed and agreed with me then carried on anyway.

I also briefly said something about parents ‘validating’ the stereotypes and that we should be challenging them instead but they obviously got the wrong end of the stick (thinking I was talking about invalidating LGBT children?) both looked a bit shocked and one said ‘well you wouldn’t want to invalidate them would you?’

It really wasn’t the time or place to get into a GC discussion and I’m not great when put on the spot so I didn’t push it further but they are definitely a bit wary now and probably think I’m some sort of transphobic/homophobic bigot.

A long pre-amble, but I would love to hear others experiences and thoughts on how to navigate these conversations.
I feel like both of these women would in reality be very open to GC views, but it’s hard to find the right words/responses/examples on the hoof, in a ‘light’ social situation and when you’d be challenging their understanding of the ‘be kind’, ‘progressive’ narrative.

I’m not looking to be liked by anyone and really don’t mind what they think of me personally, it’s more that this is something that’s going to come up more and more as my son goes through school and I’d like to know what approaches have worked for others to get people thinking without challenging too directly.

I’m also obviously keeping a close eye on materials used in the school. Really hoping to find some GC allies along the way 🤞

Sometimes it's not worth doing more than smiling and nodding while knowing inside you don't agree.

My son goes to a CoE school in a quite mixed area. A lot of the children come from more conservative cultures. One school mum has already said to me that she's had to explain gay to her boys. She told them that some people are gay but their family 'doesn't agree with it'.

I'm fine with my kids being gay, so I just listened. It was neither the time nor place to challenge that.

Thankfully though, these cultures would also be against any of this gender woo stuff so not likely to see it at his primary school.

I would say something like 'gosh, this stuff is really becoming very controversial isn't it?' and maybe mention Cass and some of the legal action, and then end it with 'I wonder how we will look back on this'.

Questions are always good, like 'but the thing is if men can become women, what about prisons?'

Or 'imagine if you sterilised your child and they then regretted it? Wouldn't that be awful?'

I think dont bite your tongue. Ive started speaking out very straight, and i am haveing SO many people saying 'thank god, i thought it was only me who thought like this'

Time to talk

The problem is our culture is being led by those who don't think about things. Of course we don't want to validate stereotypes, because that way all of us are limited and constrained to ways of behaving to fit them.

People who don't think deeply about things are often led and will then lead others. I heard the following conversation yesterday. "so and so identifies now as a boy" "ah, but it is accepted now isn't it?" "yes but his mum won't use his boy name" "won't she?"

So many opportunities there to have a conversation about why so and so now identifies as a boy lost. Who loses in that scenario? It isn't the women having the conversation, but they ARE affecting and effecting the zeitgeist.

Challenge OP wherever you can. A little goes a long way and I have had so many parents contact me to say thank you for challenging it. If in doubt read about Keira Bell, essentially asking where were the adults?

Absolutely agree that biting lip and not saying anything is NOT the way out of this mess. So many people are clueless because they haven't been challenged to actually think through things properly.

Asking questions of people is good.

Watching with interest as I also find it hard to know what to say and how.

I'd definitely say something and depending on the outcome of the conversation I would actively avoid those parents.

I think a fairly gentle and non-committal way of dealing with these sorts of convos is to comment on or question some of the language.

So "I wouldn't be surprised if he grows up to be a drag queen", replying with something fairly uncontroversial like "It's great that boys can play with any toys and grow up to wear any clothes"

Or to "don't want to invalidate them", ask "what do you mean by invalidate?" (Actually I would be quite interested to know what she meant by invalidate).

Unpopular post...The reality is that you barely know these women, and by introducing this to strangers you have (wrongly) labelled yourself as a bigot. When you have young kids in school, their friendships, invites to parties, play dates etc will be influenced by how much other Mums want to be around you. I have some GC views that even my best friends of many years struggle with. Not to mention my DH. For your child’s sake you need to be careful about who you have this conversation with. Hopefully you will find your tribe, and over time have conversations knowing that afterwards your friendships are intact. But the school gate years are long OP. And difficult to navigate at the best of times.

In a particular conversation where one parent commented that they were a real Tom boy as a child, I used that opening to comment on both my mother and her sister, my aunt.

Now in the their 70s, both wanted to be boys, especially my aunt. This would have been the 50s so stereotypes were more extreme except that I do think stereotyping is a big issue now too. Media/ film/ books/ toys are still so divided between for boys and for girls.

I moved on to say I thought it was really quite common, and driven by sexist messages, but that what's wrong with being a non conforming girl?

I frequently manage to drop in the word sexist.

I don't think it works with everyone though and some parents like the extra special trendiness and attention so are unwilling to move on.

It depends on your priorities. You may not want to make friends but presumably you want your DC to make friends.

I would have made a comment in a light hearted way, just listened or left the table for a while. You don't know these people yet. It's better to try to assess what people think first without interruption. Then you can judge the best approach.

You have to challenge effectively - a clumsy statement to people you don't know has somehow reinforced the idea that concerns are homophobic. That wasn't the best outcome.

Our DC know what sex is and now happily TERF other people. The school are very clear on my views (and the research to support them). But to get to that place you need to know the topic well, assess who you're talking to and the best way to approach it.

Quite a range of responses!

@Spudina
I think you're spot-on. That's why I don't feel comfortable directly challenging too much. It feels as though it could be counter-productive and potentially alienating, especially as they don't know me from Adam and first impressions last.
Feels like temp for questions are the best way to go but it's hard getting the words right when in the moment.

It's what I was trying to get at when I said I don't mind them not liking me personally it's more the wider implications, ability to potentially influence bigger stuff at school at some point, and any effect on my son's friendships (eg not being invited to stuff, because other Mums think I'm a twat) etc

Also move onto commenting that it is harder for boys to be non conforming isn't it? It really shouldn't be and is definitely linked to homophobia which is awful. What a shame you can't just be a non conforming boy!

*gentle questions

I thought I would link to this current thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4736500-triggernometry-i-transitioned-my-child-i-regret-it

Some posters there saying things I would also like to say here. It is really is time for adults to stand up for children's right not to be categorised so young. Indeed the right for all of us not to be categorised by anything other than our biological needs and then only when it really matters.

I agree actually
At school just keep it light and friendly until you figure out who are real friends and who are just the parents of your DCs friends.

Interesting responses here then. Worth considering in what other scenarios we might go along with really bad ideas for the sake of friendship. Many mothers dealing with the fall out of this with teens right now. I can tell you it is heartbreaking. When they are this age you have an opportunity to really influence in a way that is based in reality. I am fairly secure in my view that the majority of parents are looking to make friends for themselves and their kids who do similar.

I've always told my now teens to be who they want to be, date who they want to date and not to put a label on it. I've taught them about sex based rights and the importance of respect for others. It kind of covers everything.

Nobody suggested going along with bad ideas. Effective intervention gets results. Badly timed 'attitude' (you might want to read your posts back) alienates people and can feed into negative perceptions of the issues eg you're homophobic.
If you only have a hammer, everything is a nail. If you have a full toolbox, you choose the correct tool. The way to intervene with parents who know NB DCs is different from how you write to an MP is different from how you approach an HT.
Women have been standing up on these issues for years.

You have to challenge effectively - a clumsy statement to people you don't know has somehow reinforced the idea that concerns are homophobic. That wasn't the best outcome.

This is a very good point.

I agree that challenging where effective and appropriate is correct. However, a casual conversation at the school gates, without enough time to go into depth, is not it.

I also think for any of our views to be taken on board, a contract of trust and believability needs to be established. We have this, for example, with friends, family and sometimes work colleagues. You won't automatically have it with parents of your DC's school friends. Therefore as correct as you may be, it's unlikely your views will get traction.

I'd wait & see, and when you have firmer friendships, then discuss it.

@Alexandernevermind I am aware of the tone of my posts and they come from exasperation in part due to the failure of adults to safeguard children. I am very angry about it. I take your point however, about effective influencing.

However, we have allowed a culture of silence around this by our inability to find the perfect words and situations to challenge. Sometimes incredulity is absolutely the right thing.

In any case, several parents have approached me because I have not been quiet on the subject. Sometimes people need a hammer.

@Alexandernevermind I replied to you in error - my apology. I was responding to @AlexandriasWindmill. And I am indeed posting in anger. Sometimes I don't want to sit on that rage, because I find the situation we have gotten to unbelieveable.

In reality, and calmly viewed, I do agree there are different tools for different jobs actually. The trick is deciding which to use when. My argument is that subtlety can be the easy way but is isn't always the most courageous.

People fall out big time over this issue, with their closest friends, with their family, in my case with my brother.

It's sad but true that the majority of people are completely ignorant on this subject other than believing the standard myths "trans kids will kill themselves if they aren't validated" "trans women are women". Anyone who thinks differently is a bigot. because this is what we've all been bombarded with for so long.

The tide will turn, I'm sure of it, it's happening as we speak but in the meanwhile, it's really not an appropriate school gates or workplace conversation. If you say one wrong thing, people can quickly get the wrong impression and will label you a "Terf" and to them, a "Terf" is someone who wants to exterminate trans people out of existence. Not a considerate mum type of person.

What a good and important thread. Spudina highlights the problems. The silencing and subsequent bullying of anyone who tries to centre children's safety rather than this adult ideology. This must change and it's important that we think through all the numerous tools for doing this.

Maybe something like " I'm sure I read something about that recently? The Cass Review from the NHS? I'll have to google it to remind myself"

'We' haven't allowed a culture of silence around this. It is women (especially those who met on MN) who have been campaigning on this for years. It is women who have established all the groups across the country who are pushing research, challenging and changing policy in sports/universities/healthcare. It is because of women that the UK is leading the pushback against this ideology.

So yy I doubt the motivation of anyone that would try to put this complete shitshow back on to women because women didn't speak loudly enough. That's not where the blame lies. Women have been speaking at all volumes in lots of different places to get us to the point where we have the Cass Report; the Forstater case; the Sanchez case; the current spotlight on trans rapists. It's because of women that certain schools no longer have mixed toilets. Any progress we have made is because of women.

I 'challenged' a similar conversation by saying "I don't think it's kind to promise a child something they cannot have." This puzzled the others and allowed me to mention the impossibility of changing sex, the inevitability of puberty, the harms of the drug treatments etc. Not all in one go, but in response to their statements and questions.

Most parents of young children are coming at it from the Being Kind perspective. That's the narrative that must be challenged. We need to genuinely be kind to children.