Navigating ‘school gates’ conversations with other parents

[Toomie]

My son's only just in reception and it’s started already.

Met up for the first time with a couple of other school mums and our reception aged kids at soft play yesterday afternoon. I don’t know them very well but they both seem quite sound. One mentioned that one of their older DS’s friends (year 2 or 3) identifies as non-binary and the conversation turned that way for a while.

We didn’t get into any depth but there was a definite conflation of T with LGB and general assumption that all things T related are progressive and good. There was also a weird sort of excitement about it all, with one saying ‘my daughter sometimes says she wants to be a boy’ and the other saying her youngest son liked playing with my little ponies, and she “wouldn’t be surprised if he grows up to be not a normal ‘boy boy’ but a drag queen or something” but she would draw the line at puberty blockers.

I bit my tongue as hard as possible and tried to just listen but did try to gently say something about ‘isn’t it all based on stereotypes?’ to which they both laughed and agreed with me then carried on anyway.

I also briefly said something about parents ‘validating’ the stereotypes and that we should be challenging them instead but they obviously got the wrong end of the stick (thinking I was talking about invalidating LGBT children?) both looked a bit shocked and one said ‘well you wouldn’t want to invalidate them would you?’

It really wasn’t the time or place to get into a GC discussion and I’m not great when put on the spot so I didn’t push it further but they are definitely a bit wary now and probably think I’m some sort of transphobic/homophobic bigot.

A long pre-amble, but I would love to hear others experiences and thoughts on how to navigate these conversations.
I feel like both of these women would in reality be very open to GC views, but it’s hard to find the right words/responses/examples on the hoof, in a ‘light’ social situation and when you’d be challenging their understanding of the ‘be kind’, ‘progressive’ narrative.

I’m not looking to be liked by anyone and really don’t mind what they think of me personally, it’s more that this is something that’s going to come up more and more as my son goes through school and I’d like to know what approaches have worked for others to get people thinking without challenging too directly.

I’m also obviously keeping a close eye on materials used in the school. Really hoping to find some GC allies along the way 🤞

What a good and important thread

Isn't it just. I'll be coming back to this thread, I am going to pull out the useful phrases and rehearse them in my head, I'm not even joking. It's so important than we have the right tools to get people thinking about this.

@AlexandriasWindmill It is also women who have remained silent and encouraged the silence of others. Women who have thoughtlessly repeated and promoted the thought terminating cliche that the slur "transphobia" has become. Women who have silenced others with the "be kind" mantra which is anything but kind if it involves enforced lying.

And quite often it is men who have stood beside women who have tried to stand up to that and supported those women. This is about ideas. When I say "we", I suppose a mean a collective "we", in other words our societies in the UK. I mean parents.

I would definitely keep it light and positive where possible "isn't it great that boy can have long hair and play My Little Ponies these days, and girls can play football, without anyone having a problem with it" rather than "we shouldn't validate stereotypes".
When puberty blockers came up I'd have probably agreed and said oh it's so important that children can explore this stuff and go through phases without being labelled or put in boxes.
Rather than making really challenging or controversial statements like "men can't change sex" or "transwomen are male", that will just make people think you are a transphobe or bigot, it's easier to ask questions to find common ground - "my worry is just men pretending to identify as women to access women's refuges or prisons". No one's going to argue with that.

I think alot of Women end up saying nothing because they can't find 'the right words' or 'the right way' to say what they think. Let's not put any more pressure on women to be perfect in order not to offend people or say the wrong thing. This just ends up silencing women. Just say what you feel needs to be said. You can elaborate when you can. Don't fear being labelled a bigot or term or whatever. Just bloody move forward and say it.

I suggest one tool in the toolbox analogy is being surprised, curious and asking 'why do you think that' kind of questions about the vacuous statements coming out of people's mouths. This helps because:

1. It disrupts the collective narrative that this is the mainstream view and we all think the same
2. It encourages a deeper level of engagement with the subject matter, ideally prompting someone to think about why they think the things they do

I do think we should be able to say outright that you can't change sex, and treat anyone who thinks you can with the same incredulity as flat-earthers. However most people know that you can't actually change sex but think you should be able to be considered as the opposite sex: this is where the debate lies.

And yeah, women have been totally captured by the ideology. Women are generally more empathetic and can be incredibly naive at times. Men know the nature of other men. I see more she/her pronouns floating around than he/him.

@thedankness I agree. But this but think you should be able to be considered as the opposite sex: this is where the debate lies.

imposes upon kids the necessity of not naming what they see and introducing a confusion. In a group of teens if you have 9 people, 2 are gender questioning, there is no option in that group currently for the 7 others not to affirm them or as I see it, not to lie. The rights of the 7 are subsumed under the rights of the 2. I think when people really drill down into the debate it does mean one group of people assert their view of reality over another group.

The real debate is whether we are allowed to not consider people as the opposite sex. And how we educate very young children to understand that. I really recommend listening to that Triggernometry podcast, it is illuminating.

Picking up on women’s naivety point I totally agree. Dh default position on other men is to be cynical about their motives until proved otherwise. So often women gush “he’s lovely” and the men eye roll and exchange glances as they know what some men are really like when women aren’t around.

Himdia, is shadowing this thread on her Twitter account.

Quite simply pointing out thay humans cant actually change sex is a good one

Or innocently speaking about a detransitioner

"I don't think it's kind to promise a child something they cannot have."

Thanks @JellySaurus, I think this is a very good approach, as it forces you (them) to snap out of the brainless 'be kind' frame of mind and back into reality.

but think you should be able to be considered as the opposite sex

Why?

Why should anybody have the right to control other people's thoughts?

Well, that blew up unexpectedly.
Just had a quick look, and the consensus seems to be that I definitely am a bigot and also quite obviously made the whole thing up.

I always think questions that promote critical thinking rather than declarations are the way to go.

"no one should have to wear clothes they aren't comfortable with, but loads of women aren't into sexy underwear and high heeled shoes or whatever. I think it's important to give teenage girls that they don't have to be especially or particularly feminine, sexualised or submissive feeling to be a woman. Otherwise it's a massive regression right?"

No bigotry in your question OP. You're a mother concerned about your child and their peers. Safeguarding our children is what we do. Removing safeguarding from children and attempting to bully others into doing the same seems to be a feature rather than a bug of this queer theory steeped adult ideology.
Good to see so many nuanced and thoughtful posts.

….exists in an echo chamber, which is why the QT audience were called a lynch mob.

The posters saying it's not an appropriate subject for the school gates...who decides which subjects are appropriate? If the subject involves someone's concern for their child or the children of the school, why is it not appropriate? Where do these conversations then supposedly take place? In hushed tones, behind closed doors with only your closest confidantes? How is that effective for your child?