What's the problem with FiLiA?

[RhymesWithOrange]

On another thread a few posters referred to "the FiLiA debacle". Without wanting to poke at the wounds in the current feminist movement, can someone tell me what's gone on?

You say a right to children for all. Does that include heterosexual couples? So no assisted conception for m/f couples because it leads to assisted conception for Lesbian couples which then leads to surrogacy?

That's not how rational debate works TooBigForMyBoots

Are you really unable to foresee the potential problems with 'fertility equality rights'?

Dressing it up in the discourse of human rights is lazy thinking.

Nobody should have the right to have a child.

I agree that no one has a right to a child. Such a thing does not exist. But this is not about the right to a child, it's about should assisted conception be available to m/f couples but not Lesbian couples.

It is ‘equal’ if lesbians, like heterosexual couples, use ‘assisted conception’ as a last resort, because of difficulty conceiving after a concerted period of trying, without assistance.

That’s not what is being suggested. Equality is not being suggested.

I thought it was about FILIA.

What are your views on single heterosexual women using IVF?

This reminds me of when DD went through her relentless questions stage.

Yeah but why?

Why though?

Why?

Why, mummy, why?

Tinsel, it's the realisation that a group of women you assumed were allies are not allies.

Telling lesbians they should should find a man to conceive with is as offensive as telling straight women to celebrate their husbands wearing women's clothes.

Why is it offensive to say lesbians should make their own arrangements to have a baby?

It seems to me, @SapphosRock that you are in denial about where sperm comes from. That you inhabit some kind of fantasy that two women are able to make a baby together, no one else required, just the two of you, just like straight couples.

Given I've never said that, Sappho your post is completely out of order.

It is beyond the pale to say that about transwidows Sappho to try to score a point.

You are the one here thinking people are homophobic if they don’t get out the pom-poms and sing “ra ra ra” at your ethically dubious sense of entitlement to use men’s bodies.

Below the belt.

And completely unfair on Tinsel.

You need to stop personalising everything.

Jesus wept Sapphos are you still on your "biology is homophobic" thing?

Yes you need a man to make a baby, or you need his sperm, anyway. That's a problem for lesbians but it's not homophobic.

I don't even see how the situations are comparable "other people are saying something that I find hurtful, so I'm going to say something that you (not one of those people) will find hurtful."

It’s just nasty Tinsel. You have been really generous with your time and sharing your life, which means we know your pain. Sappho just picked on you because you are an easy target in that area. She lashed out at you. It was spiteful and totally uncalled for.

Tinsel I notice a lot of muddled, illogical thinking. If anything Sappho should be lashing out at me. I only joined this thread because she was implying the I am ‘legion’ and I wanted to own my opinions as mine alone.

@SapphosRock I am the one you should be giving your crap to, not Tinsel.

I didn't say it though.

You want to understand why some women at FiLia have beef each other? It is because groups of women attending FiLia hold beliefs that other groups of women at FiLiA find hurtful and offensive.

If you really want to understand the other point of view then put yourself in the shoes of women who are being attacked by their supposed allies.

I understand the splits in the movement, Sappho, after all I've been at this a lot longer than you have.

I wouldn't agree on your reasoning behind why they've happened but I've made no mention of that on this thread at all. The only thing I have said is that if you start using arguments based on a notion of equality, you have to consider where that argument logically takes you and in particular whether it might end up being to the detriment of another group of women.

I'm really not sure why you feel the need to bring my relationship history into it.

Apologies Tinsel, you are right that was unnecessary.

Also it feels Sappho as if you are trying to distract from the reality of what is causing division (which could be summarised as elitist soc fems v grass roots GCers, but this is an over simplification for brevity) by force teaming us to support your view of fertility "equality".

I also resent the TRA like argument of "If you think x you must think y and OH MY GOD YOU THINK Z DON'T YOU YOU RIGHT WING BIGOT!"

In saying this “the realisation that a group of women you assumed were allies are not allies” Sappho is engaging in forced teaming.

The whole idea of “allies” is tribalist. Denouncing people as ‘not allies’ because you disagree with the line they take on something, is authoritarian.

TAs have got sooo much mileage out of forced ‘allyship’. I’d be happy to never hear the word ‘ally’ again.