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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What's the problem with FiLiA?

289 replies

RhymesWithOrange · 06/02/2023 06:26

On another thread a few posters referred to "the FiLiA debacle". Without wanting to poke at the wounds in the current feminist movement, can someone tell me what's gone on?

OP posts:
Clymene · 16/03/2023 09:06

SapphosRock · 16/03/2023 08:27

No I'm not.

As a PP posted out, if surrogacy was offered to heterosexual couples on the NHS there would be an argument for gay couples to be offered this too. But it isn't and never will be.

There is a valid argument for lesbians to receive donor insemination and therefore receive equality with straight couples with male factor infertility.

No there isn't. Infertility is not a sexual orientation.

EndlessTea · 16/03/2023 09:10

TinselAngel · 16/03/2023 08:48

That's a false comparison.

The correct comparison is "everybody has a right to sex", which we do see being used for eg disabled men having a right to the services of prostituted women.

This is so true.

It is dangerous for society if anyone claims a ‘right’ to another person’s body, sex organs or gametes.

No one has a ‘right’ to use another.

SapphosRock · 16/03/2023 09:50

Lots of you obviously feel very strongly against fertility treatment so go and post about it on the infertility board. Tell infertile straight women that having a child is not a right and using donor gametes is morally wrong. Campaign to abolish IVF and IUI for straight couples if it bothers you so much.

But it doesn't bother you with straight couples does it? It's only a problem when it's lesbians.

aweegc · 16/03/2023 09:51

MiaMoor · 06/02/2023 07:23

Possibly

(youtube link to assault of autistic woman by heavy handed security staff)

I just watched that video and read the whole of the attached document.

Fucking hell. Even if Kat had been violent (and she couldn't have been less confrontational if she'd tried!), having her carried out by two men was beyond unacceptable. Knowing she was having response based on her diagnosed autism and having both the men and women completely ignoring that was horrendous. Knowing her background of forced prostitution as both an adult and a child makes it actually sick. I feel really shaken from watching it.

I obviously can't verify anything reported in the document, but it certainly makes sense of the video of the volunteer being refused entry for associating with Kat. I had to replay that because I couldn't believe it was actually being said - guilty by association?! But that's exactly what happened. WTAF?! That's just batshit. Or vindictive to a psychologically disturbing degree.

I'm saddened to know that Get the L Out isn't what I thought it was. I had not realised they were political lesbians. I don't have a problem with people being political lesbians but passing themselves off as the same as lesbians, and lesbian spokeswomen, not on.

aweegc · 16/03/2023 09:54

I just wrote a long post under that and it's not showing up.

Basically I watched the video and read the document and am horrified by what's gone on.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 16/03/2023 09:54

SapphosRock · 16/03/2023 09:50

Lots of you obviously feel very strongly against fertility treatment so go and post about it on the infertility board. Tell infertile straight women that having a child is not a right and using donor gametes is morally wrong. Campaign to abolish IVF and IUI for straight couples if it bothers you so much.

But it doesn't bother you with straight couples does it? It's only a problem when it's lesbians.

Don’t be daft Sappho.

It’s perfectly possible to have rational objections to medical interventions without deliberately shouting those objections into the faces of those who take the opposite position (or doing the online equivalent).

eg opposing the use of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones on minors.

TinselAngel · 16/03/2023 09:55

SapphosRock · 16/03/2023 09:50

Lots of you obviously feel very strongly against fertility treatment so go and post about it on the infertility board. Tell infertile straight women that having a child is not a right and using donor gametes is morally wrong. Campaign to abolish IVF and IUI for straight couples if it bothers you so much.

But it doesn't bother you with straight couples does it? It's only a problem when it's lesbians.

So now you've reverted again to not addressing the arguments people are putting forward and just railing for the lurkers.

It seems to be you Sappho who is trying to turn this into a massive issue for the "GC movement" in order to bolster up your own interests. You're trying to turn it into "Me and my perfect new (independently thinking) soc fem friends think one thing whilst all you Posie supporting Mumsnet plebs think another", and that's really not it at all, on either side.

TooBigForMyBoots · 16/03/2023 10:02

EndlessTea · 16/03/2023 08:32

Sappho have you not noticed that many gay men are now purchasing babies through surrogacy, and although it’s not provided by the NHS, they do feel entitled to rent women and buy babies as part of their ‘equal fertility rights’? And believe that only homophobes could object?

Commercial surrogacy isn’t even legal in this country, yet it is being done brazenly.

Lesbian mothers are not to blame for gay men buying babies. This ridiculous thought experiment is doing nothing more than blaming women for men's behaviour.

SapphosRock · 16/03/2023 10:06

That is an odd interpretation Tinsel.

However I do think there are clearly some issues where GC women are polarised and they are going to clash on some issues.

SapphosRock · 16/03/2023 10:12

Lesbian mothers are not to blame for gay men buying babies. This ridiculous thought experiment is doing nothing more than blaming women for men's behaviour.

This.

TinselAngel · 16/03/2023 10:13

SapphosRock · 16/03/2023 10:06

That is an odd interpretation Tinsel.

However I do think there are clearly some issues where GC women are polarised and they are going to clash on some issues.

You are doing your best to ensure that they do.

SapphosRock · 16/03/2023 10:19

So if GC women speak out against donor conception lesbians should just keep quiet to keep the peace? Just sit down and shut up?

Nope sorry, not on board with that.

EndlessTea · 16/03/2023 10:19

SapphosRock · 16/03/2023 10:12

Lesbian mothers are not to blame for gay men buying babies. This ridiculous thought experiment is doing nothing more than blaming women for men's behaviour.

This.

Since you didn’t respond when I addressed this. I’ll C&P.

EndlessTea · Today 08:40
this is not the fault of lesbians who use donor sperm.

Anyone who uses obfuscating language like “equal fertility rights” is partially culpable for normalising and setting the stage for surrogacy for gay men in the UK.

Not all lesbians who use donor sperm call it their “equal fertility rights”, so no, it is not the fault of those women.

So I consider your straight “allies” are also culpable @SapphosRock sexual orientation is irrelevant.

EndlessTea · 16/03/2023 10:20

this is not the fault of lesbians who use donor sperm.

was me quoting Sappho

EndlessTea · 16/03/2023 10:25

At the end of the day, some people believe they have the ‘right’ to access other people’s bodies to satisfy their own wants.

I am opposed to that whole thing. If you go down that road, then surrogacy, prostitution, organ harvesting and even slavery can be justified.

Its a big no from me.

TinselAngel · 16/03/2023 10:26

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

TinselAngel · 16/03/2023 10:26

Not what I'm saying!!

beastlyslumber · 16/03/2023 10:31

That video is awful. So a woman is assaulted and manhandled at filia and then filia ban her and her friends from returning the next day?

Actually quite distressing to watch that.

aweegc · 16/03/2023 13:16

beastlyslumber · 16/03/2023 10:31

That video is awful. So a woman is assaulted and manhandled at filia and then filia ban her and her friends from returning the next day?

Actually quite distressing to watch that.

And they ban a long-standing volunteer, not friends with them, who happened to walk to the event with them on Day 2 because she "associated" with them!

I don't care if someone blocks someone on Twitter.

When women facilitate men manhandling a known survivor of forced child and adult prostitution, also known to have autism, out of a women's event, even when she's literally frozen stiff in fear, it's simply disgusting. You actually can't get a place much more unsafe than that to be honest, because if a woman like Kat isn't safe there, nobody is.

The video shows clearly that she wasn't causing any problem at all.

It seems somewhat like an authoritarian regime (I've lived in one so know what I'm talking about). People get removed from society, blacklisted, horrifically lied about and blamed for what's happening to them. The regime couldn't care less.

I also had no idea that Get the L Out U.K. is a political lesbian organisation. I don't mind that women are political lesbians. I mind them pretending that's the same as lesbianism and then appointing themselves spokeswomen for lesbians.

I shared their report from a few years ago about the impact on lesbian spaces of trans women very widely. I'm now wondering if that report was as thorough as I understood it to be because there's a fundamental dishonesty at play it seems. I wonder if it had been researched by lesbians (the ones who are only same-sex attracted) if the conclusions would have been different - and quite possibly worse.

EndlessTea · 16/03/2023 13:38

I didn’t think political lesbianism was just about seeing sexuality as a choice, I thought it was more about choosing to devote your life- mind, body and soul to women. It is a conscious political commitment to women.

Obviously, most women who want and are able to make such a commitment are going to be exclusively same sex attracted in the first place, but this is an important distinction from women who are same sex attracted but not feminist in any way - eg- Ruth Hunt and Linda Riley.

beastlyslumber · 16/03/2023 14:46

I'm going to be honest, I don't really know anything about Get the L Out, so I'm not going to comment on them.

But Filia - have they ever responded to this? How do they explain themselves?

SapphosRock · 16/03/2023 16:37

I wasn't there so I don't know the whole story but I think the person in the video is Kitten Pinder ex Big Brother contestant who was known to security as she had been disruptive and abusive at the conference at called Sheila Jeffreys a cunt.

KatMcBundleFace · 16/03/2023 17:16

There's clearly a complete other side to this and.......
I honestly can't believe people are STILL trying to milk one person not being allowed into a disco.

Filia was such a moving an important women's conference. I will definitely be going again.

AllOutofEverything · 16/03/2023 17:47

SapphosRock · 16/03/2023 16:37

I wasn't there so I don't know the whole story but I think the person in the video is Kitten Pinder ex Big Brother contestant who was known to security as she had been disruptive and abusive at the conference at called Sheila Jeffreys a cunt.

Does that mean if you call someone a cunt at one event you can't attend anything organised by anyone?

beastlyslumber · 16/03/2023 17:54

Wow I haven't heard about any of this! Is there a thread about it somewhere?

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