Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Brendan O'Neill - Spiked

207 replies

TonTonMacoute · 04/02/2023 10:11

Another article here

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 20:30

Clymene · 04/02/2023 20:27

Oh don't be so bloody patronising @WinterDeWinter. No one is giving him undue attention. He wrote an article that I read and enjoyed. Beyond that I know nothing about him and don't care.

Ah, I was responding to @NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom, who seems rather more invested.

Either way, you must know that the question 'are these people really our friends' is quite a current one in GC circles - this speaks to that debate and I honestly don't think it's patronising to raise it here.

mach2 · 04/02/2023 20:31

Brendan would be gratified in the Oscar Wilde sense to know he was being talked about.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 04/02/2023 20:33

WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 19:58

The days when O’Neill was a child?
I don't think he was a child in the 90s? I don't know when he joined, but by then their reputation definitely preceded them.

Stop moving the goalposts. You said 80s. I screenshotted your post to jog your memory.

Brendan O’Neill was at primary school in the 80s and was a teenager in the 90s.

I only remember this because I clearly remember thinking ‘shit, he’s younger than me!’ (a mid 70s baby) and feeling rather old for about a minute.

There is almost 20 years worth of O’Neill’s writing, TV punditry and podcasting online, so if you want more detailed info on his childhood I’m sure you’ll be able to Google it.

Brendan O'Neill - Spiked
Brendan O'Neill - Spiked
WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 20:34

7Worfs · 04/02/2023 20:28

It's really not a purity spiral to ask why we give someone with a questionable history of support for feminism this much attention. I understand that it might be question that makes you uncomfortable, though.

You are right, it’s not a purity spiral. It’s ad hominem.

Really? Isn't that a bit... sensitive? Either way, it's no more ad hominem than un-self-aware. And people do seem very uncomfortable about the possibility they might be being exploited by an exploiter.

7Worfs · 04/02/2023 20:35

Either way, you must know that the question 'are these people really our friends' is quite a current one in GC circles - this speaks to that debate and I honestly don't think it's patronising to raise it here.

Good Lord. It’s this sort of quasi-elitism that puts so many women off joining in the fight and even posting here

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 04/02/2023 20:37

WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 20:30

Ah, I was responding to @NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom, who seems rather more invested.

Either way, you must know that the question 'are these people really our friends' is quite a current one in GC circles - this speaks to that debate and I honestly don't think it's patronising to raise it here.

My biggest character flaw is not being able to just walk away from someone saying silly things online.

Y’know, like blaming someone for things that happened when they were in primary school?

7Worfs · 04/02/2023 20:41

WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 20:34

Really? Isn't that a bit... sensitive? Either way, it's no more ad hominem than un-self-aware. And people do seem very uncomfortable about the possibility they might be being exploited by an exploiter.

I’m not sure what you mean by sensitive… ad hominem is a logical fallacy that would lose you an official debate.

And quite condescending to insinuate that posters and readers here are too gullible to be allowed to select who to read all by themselves.

WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 20:41

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 04/02/2023 20:33

Stop moving the goalposts. You said 80s. I screenshotted your post to jog your memory.

Brendan O’Neill was at primary school in the 80s and was a teenager in the 90s.

I only remember this because I clearly remember thinking ‘shit, he’s younger than me!’ (a mid 70s baby) and feeling rather old for about a minute.

There is almost 20 years worth of O’Neill’s writing, TV punditry and podcasting online, so if you want more detailed info on his childhood I’m sure you’ll be able to Google it.

I said I came into contact with the RCP in the 80s. I said nothing about B ON being a member then. He will have joined in the 90s, I imagine - when their reputation as a culty cult with very dodgy tactics was well established and impossible not to be aware of if you were on the left.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 04/02/2023 20:42

7Worfs · 04/02/2023 20:35

Either way, you must know that the question 'are these people really our friends' is quite a current one in GC circles - this speaks to that debate and I honestly don't think it's patronising to raise it here.

Good Lord. It’s this sort of quasi-elitism that puts so many women off joining in the fight and even posting here

The ‘GC Left’ Facebook group/The Real Feminists of B-Right-On must be having a dull night!

WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 20:44

And quite condescending to insinuate that posters and readers here are too gullible to be allowed to select who to read all by themselves.

Ah, then I guess we had better all keep our opinions to ourselves, then: everyone is able to make their own decisions, no-one should comment on anyone else's actions or positions. Are you a choice feminist too? Because that ends badly, I gotta let you know.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 04/02/2023 20:46

WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 20:41

I said I came into contact with the RCP in the 80s. I said nothing about B ON being a member then. He will have joined in the 90s, I imagine - when their reputation as a culty cult with very dodgy tactics was well established and impossible not to be aware of if you were on the left.

So you’ve never met him, weren’t involved at the same time & accept that he was a teenager in the 90s?

And perhaps you could also agree that teenagers are full of silly ideas, can easily fall in with all sorts of bad people, and don’t have any power over the adults in their social circles?

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 04/02/2023 20:48

WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 20:44

And quite condescending to insinuate that posters and readers here are too gullible to be allowed to select who to read all by themselves.

Ah, then I guess we had better all keep our opinions to ourselves, then: everyone is able to make their own decisions, no-one should comment on anyone else's actions or positions. Are you a choice feminist too? Because that ends badly, I gotta let you know.

Your opinions on this thread thus far are that you dislike Brendan O’Neill and think tap dancing is crap.

This is not the insightful feminist discourse you perhaps imagine it to be.

7Worfs · 04/02/2023 20:50

I had to google what choice feminist means.
To me it looks like a maliciously created label to keep many women off ‘official’ feminism. 🤷‍♀️

WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 20:59

And perhaps you could also agree that teenagers are full of silly ideas, can easily fall in with all sorts of bad people, and don’t have any power over the adults in their social circles?

But he never left? Spiked IS the RCP as was.

I had to google what choice feminist means.
To me it looks like a maliciously created label to keep many women off ‘official’ feminism. 🤷‍♀️

I'm very surprised you have never heard of choice feminism, given its role in <gestures to the wreckage of women's rights>.

This is not the insightful feminist discourse you perhaps imagine it to be.
I'm not actually discussing feminism really though am I? I'm discussing values, and whether a frog should get a lift with a scorpion or whatever the fable is, and libertarianisms both left and right, Queer Theory, populism. Primarily I've just been responding to people who are angry about what I'm saying and are taking it as a personal criticism.

I understand that you agree and particularly that you don't like that I am questioning your position, but you've been pretty snarky from the off and I think I've taken it all in pretty good humour, with a little back snark, while explaining my position as well as I can.

7Worfs · 04/02/2023 21:11

I'm very surprised you have never heard of choice feminism, given its role in <gestures to the wreckage of women's rights>

There’s that quasi-elitism again. That’s what’s pushing sane women away from the ‘official, proper feminism’.

WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 21:18

7Worfs · 04/02/2023 21:11

I'm very surprised you have never heard of choice feminism, given its role in <gestures to the wreckage of women's rights>

There’s that quasi-elitism again. That’s what’s pushing sane women away from the ‘official, proper feminism’.

I think you're going to have to unpack that a bit more - what is elitist about it?

nepeta · 04/02/2023 21:24

Many people with all kinds of political views write on this topic. Some of those wider views I find ghastly and poisonous, just as I find the views of some very famous writers in history ghastly and poisonous.

The question when to stop paying attention to the work of someone I disagree with on many other issues is an important one. So far my current choice is still case-by-case (Tolstoy didn't think much of women, for instance, but I still reread his books, while remembering that he wouldn't have been impressed by me being one of his readers).

When it comes to the redefinition of 'woman' and the erasure of the female sex from all language (and, ultimately, from being able to unite in political activism) many anti-feminists share views with us, but for diametrically opposite reasons (though some may have changed their views towards less sexist ones, of course).

Their arguments can therefore be valid, depending on their research and thinking skills, but I never forget that they share some of our concerns because they wish to keep us subjugated as a sex. So it's not a good idea to join hands with them, but it's not a bad idea to read their arguments keeping this context in mind.

It's like the GC feminists and the anti-feminist right were fighting duels at dawn and the gender identitarians came and stole all our pistols. Both sides want those back but for opposite uses.

In any case, many basic ideas in gender identity ideology are very much like those in retrogressive anti-feminist arguments, such as the belief in the essentialism of gender stereotypes, the idea that 'women' should behave in feminine manners and define themselves as feminine people (look up some definitions of femininity and you can see why that would kill most feminism as feminine means, among other things, being submissive and passive).

So in this three-enemies battle everyone shares something with each of the three enemies and sometimes is drawn to awkward temporary co-operations.

7Worfs · 04/02/2023 21:25

I mean actively using questionable/divisive labels for different kinds of feminism, blaming women who don’t subscribe to your version of feminism for the erosion of women’s rights, trying to position your attack on the author as the correct POV citing ‘GC circles’ (which circles, where?).

The whole vibe of your posts is that there is one correct way to be a feminist, and you are it on this thread, taking it upon yourself to educate us all.

WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 21:27

So in this three-enemies battle everyone shares something with each of the three enemies and sometimes is drawn to awkward temporary co-operations.
I absolutely agree with this and most of what you have written. It's case by case - can only ever be.

But on this thread, no-one was really dealing with the awkwardness of the cooperation as you put it - they were shushing and brushing it under the carpet. I think that is a dangerous road.

WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 21:35

7Worfs · 04/02/2023 21:25

I mean actively using questionable/divisive labels for different kinds of feminism, blaming women who don’t subscribe to your version of feminism for the erosion of women’s rights, trying to position your attack on the author as the correct POV citing ‘GC circles’ (which circles, where?).

The whole vibe of your posts is that there is one correct way to be a feminist, and you are it on this thread, taking it upon yourself to educate us all.

I made an assumption that most of the women on this feminist board would share an analysis of where liberal feminism went wrong - or at the least, be aware of the radfem narrative even if they disagree. I didn't deliberately use an obscure term to make you feel inferior.

It's fine not to know - it's the getting shirty and accusing me of patronising which isn't great. Usually when I've been in that situation myself (often) I have just asked for an explanation of whatever term I don't recognise. It's fine.

And is the expression 'choice feminism' divisive? Is it divisive to say that there are different schools of feminism and one has been a lot keener on keeping the status quo? Any analysis of how we got here is going to lay the blame somewhere, or it won't, you know, be an analysis? We're not babies. This isn't 'be kind', surely? Things got fucked up and we need to talk about why.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 04/02/2023 21:35

WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 20:59

And perhaps you could also agree that teenagers are full of silly ideas, can easily fall in with all sorts of bad people, and don’t have any power over the adults in their social circles?

But he never left? Spiked IS the RCP as was.

I had to google what choice feminist means.
To me it looks like a maliciously created label to keep many women off ‘official’ feminism. 🤷‍♀️

I'm very surprised you have never heard of choice feminism, given its role in <gestures to the wreckage of women's rights>.

This is not the insightful feminist discourse you perhaps imagine it to be.
I'm not actually discussing feminism really though am I? I'm discussing values, and whether a frog should get a lift with a scorpion or whatever the fable is, and libertarianisms both left and right, Queer Theory, populism. Primarily I've just been responding to people who are angry about what I'm saying and are taking it as a personal criticism.

I understand that you agree and particularly that you don't like that I am questioning your position, but you've been pretty snarky from the off and I think I've taken it all in pretty good humour, with a little back snark, while explaining my position as well as I can.

Spiked is what evolved from it.

Why on earth would you think 30 years wouldn’t have brought about any change?

Yet other posters think there has been so much change that Spiked is actually a right wing website?

Don’t you think that’s a bit odd?

I looked it up. O’Neill wrote his first article for Living Marxism in 1995.

Which was when I was working as stripper in a Mayfair club.

Thankfully, no one assumes that having been a stripper in the 90s I’m still a stripper today.

Nor do they assume that I see stripping as a good thing and want my daughter to follow in my footsteps.

Maybe that’s the real reason I’m impervious to these left wing purity spirals/struggle sessions?
I wasn’t pure to start with so don’t fear being accused of it.

That so many left wing feminists criticise transactivists whilst using the exact same bullying tactics against women that TRAs use against TERFs is as fascinating as it is horrifying.

This is a real time demonstration of what we’ve talking about over here:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4732781-mermaids-getting-eaten-from-the-inside-out

7Worfs · 04/02/2023 21:37

Oh please, dangerous road 🙄

@nepeta - I appreciate your post. I have a question - where does that leave women who are say, conservative/right wing, or have more traditional or religious views, or just don’t want/can’t get too deep into intersectional activism?
There are many who would want to take a stand against this genderism lunacy, but it seems ‘official, proper feminists’ don’t want these sorts around?

TrevorOptions · 04/02/2023 21:43

Loving the discourse
but surely ‘So on the inconvenience of having to squeeze his penis into a bikini, he says we need to ‘normalise women having bulges’. ‘Normalise the bulge!’ goes his wacky rallying cry.’

this is what we need to be discussing ?!
does he mean the bit of your tummy that hangs over the top of jeans?

bulge it baby

WinterDeWinter · 04/02/2023 21:45

Don’t you think that’s a bit odd?

No, not at all - I think it is the whole point. Spiked will be left or right, depending on what suits their contrarian strategy. Change is the whole point - but not in the way you mean, in the sense of 'rejecting previous positions'.

I think people sound foolish when they use 'woke' and 'purity spiral' as argument-enders, like TRAs use 'TWAW'. Left-wing feminists who point out structural oppression or radfems who think liberal feminists were dupes are not on a 'purity spiral' just because you disagree with their analysis.

Clymene · 04/02/2023 21:46

I doubt you're making anyone feel inferior @WinterDeWinter

You're irritating me but that's about it.