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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

India Willoughby, Question Time Thu 2 Feb 2240

710 replies

Consufed · 02/02/2023 08:39

India Willoughby is going to be on Question Time tonight. BBC1 10.40pm.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
Awiltu · 03/02/2023 11:20

IW's frustration speaks volumes about IW's view of women.

To IW, a woman is a shell, a surface appearance, a skin to inhabit. IW thinks that IW can climb inside that shell because to IW it is unoccupied, empty space. Hence the "better woman than you" comments - IW thinks IW is making better use of a "woman" shell by occupying it with IW's personhood.

The frustration is all "But I've put on the "woman" surface, I look like you, surely that is all it takes, why isn't that enough?" Absolutely no concept that beyond the surface appearance of an adult human female there is an actual human being.

Emotionalsupportviper · 03/02/2023 11:23

ReneBumsWombats · 03/02/2023 09:29

Terf stands for trans-exclusionary radical feminist. It was originally a neutral descriptor and actually necessary, because actual radical feminism (short lived and outdated) stated that sex was entirely irrelevant, nothing but a construct, and there was therefore no reason transwomen could not be anything women could be. There was a subsect that called itself radical feminism but didn't agree on this point (unsurprisingly, since it's clearly nonsense).

These days, the term has been rediscovered and is now used as a slur against anyone who doesn't believe transwomen are women. It's handy because everyone hates a feminist and a RADICAL one must be the worst one of all. It's even more stupid because the understanding that men aren't women, women aren't men and sex can't change, may be many things...but radical, it certainly is not. And I would bet that if you looked at most people who believe this, one thing you'd find is that very few of them would in fact be radical feminists.

"Cis woman" just means woman. The prefix was added to dilute the definition and make it easier, semantically, to argue that transwomen are women. There's a scientific root in the term but they actually got it the wrong way round so don't worry about it.

I've not heard of hormone washing in the womb, but I can't imagine it's good news. It might be something to do with how some people argue that since hormones are responsible for developing a foetus' sex in the womb, you can get the exact same effect by taking hormones as a grown adult.

I've not heard of hormone washing in the womb, but I can't imagine it's good news.

I haven't heard of this in relation to humans @ReneBumsWombats , but I have in relations to puppies.

In a litter of pups, if there is a large number of puppies of one sex (eg as with our spaniel 11 pups, 9 males and 2 females), and the minority sex pups are between the majority ones, they can become affected by the hormones of the other sex. Our little cocker bitch, for instance, lifts her leg to pee like a male dog (a proper "pee-up-the-wall", not just a "don't-want-a-wet-paw" lift). I assume that this happens with other animals which have larger numbers of babies at a time. This is because a bitch's uterus is shaped like a "y", with two horns, and the hormones are pretty much free flowing even though each pup has its own amniotic sac. (I don't pretend to understand the mechanics of this.)

As far as I know (but I'm not an endocrinologist or a biologist so could well be wrong) this is unlikely to happen in humans because we don't tend, even in a multiple pregnancy, to have enough babies of one sex for the concentration of their hormones to "overwhelm" the baby of the other sex.

It will be interesting to see how androgenised the babies of transmen are, when their mothers - sorry - gestational parents have been pouring testosterone into herself form months or years. This social experiment isn't just affecting the safety of women it could very well be affecting the health and mental well-being of newborn infants.

Emotionalsupportviper · 03/02/2023 11:24

*themselves, not herself - sorry

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/02/2023 11:29

Oh goodness, India! Predatory lesbians. Really? Can't you do better?

mrshoho · 03/02/2023 11:33

India just proving that India is not very convincing doing the womaning. Sorry India but you’ve shown your brain works and thinks as your biological sex no matter what's on your passport.

BringMeTea · 03/02/2023 11:38

Anyone remember a few years ago and IW was on Big Brother and there was a thread. And some folks were confused by the initials and Ian Woosnam started trending? 😂 Fun times. I also recall poor Anne Widdecombe being harangued by IW after innocently saying 'he'.

Helleofabore · 03/02/2023 11:38

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/02/2023 11:29

Oh goodness, India! Predatory lesbians. Really? Can't you do better?

I suspect that India likes the idea very much though YetAnotherSpartacus.

HandShoe · 03/02/2023 11:39

'Predatory Lesbians' sounds like a new Netflix hit. Not sure whether it'd be a depressingly misogynistic show written by porn-addled wokeboys or a kick-ass woman centric sensation where murderers/abusers are eradicated by an elite group of secret crime fighters...

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/02/2023 11:42

I've just got to the big beefy bloke telling women to have faith in the state to protect us.

Yeah right.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/02/2023 11:43

Handmaiden's on now.

DialSquare · 03/02/2023 11:44

a kick-ass woman centric sensation where murderers/abusers are eradicated by an elite group of secret crime fighters...

I'd definitely watch this!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/02/2023 11:44

And dutiful companion male busting to use the word 'bigot'.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 03/02/2023 11:45

Re: TERF - I was genuinely nervous about being called a terf back in 2017/2018. It was used with such spotting vitriol against any woman who had the temerity to even raise the gentlest of questions regarding transgenderism.

Besides, I’m a married heterosexual mother of an adored adult son, definitely nowhere near a lesbian separatist… (I have lots of questions re the concept of ‘patriarchy’ too!) so the RF part didn’t seem right… and I can’t exclude trans from radical feminism without first being a radical feminist, so the TE didn’t apply either.

I did a bit of leafleting for FPFW during the English consultation period and met some other GC women in person. One told me to start thinking of ‘terf’ in little letters to make iIt less powerful.
The people who use TERF as an insult are well aware that it isn’t really applicable to the vast majority of people they shout it at, they use it for some chaps, for starters (see also ‘TERG’ and other variants specifically for gay men).
Whatever a terf is in 2023, it seems to me that while all TERFs are terfs, not all terfs are TERFs (sorry Radical Feminists, you seem to have become a mere subset of a bigger group, thanks to the same weirdo language appropriation that has made adult human females a subset of women. Bunch of PoMo addled wankers!)

Once I started to accept that I am, to all intents and purposes a terf (someone who knows that mammalian reproduction requires 2 types of gametes and isn’t willing to pretend otherwise) despite not being a TERF (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist) I started to find the joy in applying old fashioned grammar rules to this brand new noun, no longer tethered to it’s original acronym.

In English, nouns that end with f are pluralised by substituting the f with ve - dwarf becomes dwarves, hoof becomes hooves etc.

By applying the same to terf (singular) we get terves (plural).
From there we can get ‘tervish’ reminiscent of ‘dervish’) and ‘tervern’ (which puts me in mind of ‘cloven’) and when you add all these together and somehow it results in what sounds less like a organised group of evil-bigot feminazis and more like a species of magical forest dwelling creatures.

And who wouldn’t want to be a magical, forest dwelling creature?

So the trans activists took TERF (historical, factual, acronym) and used it as pejorative noun (capitals used online indicate shouting, so ‘DIE TERF SCUM!’ has the effect of obscuring the acronym in the middle of the phrase).
And we took their raised voices out of the pejorative noun by deliberately writing it in little letters (and using a capital T when appropriate as per normal English rules), because it’s a silly made up word, to paraphrase the late, great, Magdalen Berns, and we can’t allow them to use silly, made up words to terrorise us into being too frightened to advocating for women & girls .

I’d much rather be a terf, one of many terves, some of whom are part of The Tervern Sisterhood, some of whom are our male Tervish Brethren, than be a bully or a coward.
It’s a silly, made up word that was used against us, so we should ‘reclaim’ it to use however we fancy. I’ve come to prefer it to ‘Gender Critical’ which is a bit too serious-sounding for me, and while I AM personally critical of gender (gender meaning: sex stereotypes) there are plenty of tervish people about who aren’t that bothered about sex stereotypes just don’t really think about that concept at all, perhaps who have joined in the pushback against trans ideology because it clashes their own faith based rights, or because it’s become a frontline in the battle of free speech via enforced personal-pronouning, the concept of ‘deadnaming’ and people getting banned from social media for daring to point out that ‘Transwomen Are Men’.

And some terves are just language pedants who know that women = adult human females and thus a ‘transgender woman’, following the exact same rules as all the other ‘adjective plus noun’ combos India Willoughby uses as examples would result in transgender + women = transmen (aka a women who says they are men).

Anyone who doesn’t automatically and 100% believe that India Willoughby has changed sex is a terf.
Anyone who doesn’t believe Adam George/Isla Bryson has changed sex is a terf.

Even if you state publicly that Isla Bryson has a poor wee lady-brain that is tragically trapped in the body of a hulking great rapist so needs to be kept away from the ‘other female inmates’ you’ll be accused of sounding ‘terfy’.

When the trans activists say ‘Trans Women ARE Women’ they are demanding that society take their fantasy mantra literally, not metaphorically, not ‘in some social circumstances but not biologically’ not ‘transwomen are women except for the convicted sex offenders’.

When Stonewall said ‘No Exceptions’ they meant no exceptions. Not ‘ok, maybe you’ve got a point, Isla, Tiffany, Sophie & Barbie aren’t female but Paris has now had her penis amputated and she only killed a fella anyway, so she’s definitely female now & Katie’s clearly a paedo but despite multiple convictions hasn’t yet had a sentence of significant length so they’s sex is up for future negotiation’

They meant no exceptions, none. Not one.

Nicola Sturgeon has failed her trans rights test and has rightfully, righteously been cast out into the Transphobic Wilderness.

NGL, it IS getting quite crowded here but The Terves are a pragmatic species so we can usually find ways to make room for newbies.

I should really have posted this in one of the threads where we’ve been discussing the function of language and our preferred phrasings for clear, factual conversations on this topic but hey ho, it was borne as a reply to @Gall10’s question and has managed to grow into a fully-fledged being before I got to the ‘post’ button 🤣

I will past it over there too, trying to keep things somewhat tidy because FWR has been rather busy this week and some threads have been extremely fast paced!

Happylittlechicken · 03/02/2023 11:47

Has these been moved to the naughty corner? India must have woken up?

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 03/02/2023 11:47

HandShoe · 03/02/2023 11:39

'Predatory Lesbians' sounds like a new Netflix hit. Not sure whether it'd be a depressingly misogynistic show written by porn-addled wokeboys or a kick-ass woman centric sensation where murderers/abusers are eradicated by an elite group of secret crime fighters...

It’s either a sensationalist ITV crime compilation or a graphic novel by Nina Paley!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/02/2023 11:51

Of course it's been done. Sung by Meg Christian.

Leaping Lesbians

Leaping Lesbians
(closet squeaking open)

Bwahahahhahaha!

Here come the lesbians
Here come the leaping lesbians
We're going to please you, tease you
Hypnotize you, try to squeeze you
We're going to get you if we can

Here come the lesbians

Don't go and try to fight it
Run away or try to hide it
We want your loving; that's our plan

Here come the lesbians

ah-ah-ah
Don't look in the closet
ah-ah-ah
Who's creeping down the stairs
ah-ah-ah
Who's slipping up behind you
ah-ah-ah
Watch out; better beware

Ice fingers feeling, stealing
Reaching out from floor to ceiling
You can't escape; you're in our hands

Here come the lesbians

Inside your heart is racing
when you see our shadow's chasing

Here come the lesbians

(Here come the lesbians)

Here come the lesbians

(Here come the lesbians)

The leaping lesbians...

bo-de-o bo-de-o bo-de-o bo

bo-de-o bo-de-o bo-de-o bo

ah-ah-ah
Don't look in the closet
ah-ah-ah
Who's creeping down the stairs
ah-ah-ah
Who's slipping up behind you
ah-ah-ah
Watch out; better beware

Ice fingers feeling, stealing
Reaching out from floor to ceiling
You can't escape; you're in our hands

(We'll save your children)

Inside your heart is racing
when you see our shadow's chasing

Here come the lesbians

(Here come the lesbians)

Here come the lesbians

(Here come the lesbians)

The leaping lesbians...
lyricstranslate.com

bignosebignose · 03/02/2023 11:52

I keep being distracted by work and finding myself a page behind on this thread, so apologies if this has been mentioned here or elsewhere. A week or two ago, there was faux outrage on TRA Twitter because a speaker at one of KJK's gigs referred to the Big Lie. TRAs fell over themselves denouncing this nazi reference, as if the speaker was supporting the Big Lie rather than pointing at it.

Anyway, oh, the ironies:

India Willoughby, Question Time Thu 2 Feb 2240
HootyMcboob76 · 03/02/2023 12:00

India is a male.
They are very very angry that they cannot change that.
They KNOW they can't change it, and all the (bad) plastic surgery is never going to be enough.
They were born male and they will exit this world as male.
The root of this whole movement is anger..

They can't be women so they are setting out to destroy women.

Rowthe · 03/02/2023 12:03

LaughingPriest · 03/02/2023 10:29

OMG I had assumed that 'if I was raped what prison would I go to' was a slip of the tongue but no.... that was a fully formed thought India had and broadcast to everyone.

And no called India out on it.

India kept saying " what about if I had to go to prison?"

And any time anyone brought up legitimate concerns would accuse them of homophobia or racism.
Really offensive.

Ella was great!

Just repeating the facts. You cant change sex.

RachelGreeneGreep · 03/02/2023 12:04

Awiltu · 03/02/2023 11:20

IW's frustration speaks volumes about IW's view of women.

To IW, a woman is a shell, a surface appearance, a skin to inhabit. IW thinks that IW can climb inside that shell because to IW it is unoccupied, empty space. Hence the "better woman than you" comments - IW thinks IW is making better use of a "woman" shell by occupying it with IW's personhood.

The frustration is all "But I've put on the "woman" surface, I look like you, surely that is all it takes, why isn't that enough?" Absolutely no concept that beyond the surface appearance of an adult human female there is an actual human being.

Exactly!
I didn't watch the programme, but this sums up my thoughts precisely.

Mollyollydolly · 03/02/2023 12:07

I know IW is an idiot. What I found most disturbing was the SNP woman refusing point blank to call a rapist a man. I used to think people in power were intelligent in the main and presumed most had principles. This issue has a changed my view about how our society operates. Out of all the people on that panel the only one who was prepared to state the bleeding obvious was Ella. It's discombobulating, gaslighting on an epic scale.

Awiltu · 03/02/2023 12:08

ReneBumsWombats · 03/02/2023 10:59

Windia.

Windier?

Sometimes a spoonerism is more apt than the original...

Madcats · 03/02/2023 12:09

"Predatory Lesbians" would be a good sequel to the Apple TV series "Bad Sisters" (I don't think any of them are lesbians, but I am only on episode 4, and really am not too sure what a lesbian is these days now that some have penises)

I like SOGIbottom's new word "terven" the noun/adj even has a wiki page: en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terven#:~:text=Noun,%2C%20gendercritter%20(derogatory)%2C%20TERF

Boiledbeetle · 03/02/2023 12:09

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/02/2023 11:29

Oh goodness, India! Predatory lesbians. Really? Can't you do better?

I'm loving that as we all have watched at different times everyone gets to that point and basically thinks Really India? Really! You're actually going there!

IcakethereforeIam · 03/02/2023 12:12

@NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom thank you, I enjoyed your post. I thought you'd like this (jic you haven't seen it, I've posted it in the past on mn), terfyn is Welsh for boundary, limit, end. I'm not a Welsh speaker, but I've seen it on road signs, it always amuses me.