India Willoughby, Question Time Thu 2 Feb 2240

[Consufed]

India Willoughby is going to be on Question Time tonight. BBC1 10.40pm.

@Felix125 tiger bloke, I'm pretty certain, committed suicide a few years ago.

Rhonda Hotchkiss said, without approval from a bigwig (not sure if prison service or minister), they have to go in general population after 72 hours. I'm not if this applied to solitary only or also segregation. As pp said, segregated means the rapist/Adam/Isla/he would have been mixing with women prisoners anyway. Just a smaller number.

This was what infuriated me about the discussion last night (and in general)

The debate keeps being around the needs of "genuine" trans women and how vulnerable they are but that's not what people are talking about with the Isla scandal.
People are on about the fact the Gov is making it easy for predatory men to dupe the system with no safeguards in place with the law they have passed. NS has more or less admitted in she doesn't think "Isla" is genuine! That's the bottom line and that's what politicians should be answering too.

Boy George is at least familiar with prisons, having spent time in one for assault and false imprisonment when he handcuffed a male escort he'd hired to a radiator and beat him with a metal chain.

He uses male pronouns and was housed in a male prison, so if he pops into the ladies' loos that just shows a lack of understanding of women's boundaries, the need for safeguarding of vulnerable women and girls, and our right to dignity and privacy away from the kind of men who handcuff people to radiators and beat them.

It used to be called gender dysphoria and classed as a mental health issue - why has this suddenly changed?

On the clip someone posted yesterday on another thread of IW and Kellie-jay on This Morning, IW actually says “I have gender dysmorphia” - so basically admits they think of themselves as a woman (but presumably know they are not?)

Im not sure why that has now changed to “I am a biological woman”. I suspect IW has thus far been living in an echo chamber and has become so saturated in lies they don’t really know who/what they are at all but just repeatedly bleat out “I am a woman” in the hope they can bully/brainwash the sceptics into submission.

On that Big Brother clip when IW shouts “I am a woman”! You can tell all the women are thinking “No…no you’re not though” but are too afraid to say it.

Boy George...

2008
www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/dec/05/2

2016
www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/boy-george-attack-victim-slams-7110222

2022

uk.news.yahoo.com/boy-george-victim-slams-inclusion-080000212.html

Showing the regard given to victims of male violence

Jic anyone new to the thread hasn't seen the link. Please consider signing and sharing the Government petition, we need a debate over single sex spaces.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4722618-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-2?page=2&reply=123212657

So, that's Boy George's "goddess energy" is it? Pissing in the ladies toilet! That makes you "a goddess", but only if you're a man.

I've turned autocorrupt 'terfy', it finished that sentence for me!

I think it's an inevitable pendulum swing Endless

Previously, not enough was known about trauma and mental health issues.

Awareness has grown exponentially in recent years (largely to do with access to knowledge online), which has been good and important in many ways.

But, as often seems to be the case, it then goes too far. With saturation, the issue gets only superficially understood, latched onto, appropriated, commercialised etc.

Then the real value of the original awareness raising can get lost and it becomes counterproductive for society at large, iatrogenic (self perpetuating), and diluted or unhelpful for those who would have originally benefitted from increased awareness and support.

Hopefully, a balance can be reached. Hopefully, an understanding that the value of knowing the roots and effects of trauma and mental health issues, lies not in keeping people stuck in it, or identifying with it, but in using this as a basis to create systems and support that genuinely aims to help people who need it to access life beyond these issues as much as is possible.

There was a growing movement towards resilience focus in mental health a few years ago, but that seems to have dissipated.

Good mental health and maturity needs to be attractive and needs role models. I think I see less celebrity icons talking about growing through their challenges these days, and more who identify with them. Does anyone else see this?

Unless I misheard, when Ella Whelan asks Jenny Gilruth directly about whether Adam Graham is a man or a woman:

Fiona Bruce interjects with 'who now calls himself Isla Bryson'

Bad show Fiona, how dare you misgender etc etc.

You KNOW, just like we ALL know, that the whole thing is nonsense, even if you pretend not to.

When India finished one of her long answers, there wasn't a single clap from the audience in the gap before the next person started speaking. Silence. That must have been a bit uncomfortable for her.

And this morning Labour MP Nadia Whittome continues to make it clear that the LP will follow the TWAW and self ID route.

twitter.com/NadiaWhittomeMP/status/1621111231506485249

Insisting that there is 'no detrimental impact on women's rights'.

Either stupid or a liar.

God, that's awful. Seeing pictures really brings the reality home. I wish the conversation in the media would include images like this- we are talking about PRISONS (and I wonder what people are actually picturing in their minds when we talk about them) and bring the conversation back to the actual women in the stories; the prisoners and the victims. Otherwise it just stays in the realm of intellectualism and sensationalism. Rather than the ACTUAL REALITY.

Either stupid or a liar.

Multiple identities going on there

They seem to be discussing this in womens hour right now.

Wondering if they're just completely avoiding the subject of men there altogether.

The report sounds horrific however and definitely worth air time over blokes thinking they're women tbh

So, that's Boy George's "goddess energy" is it? Pissing in the ladies toilet! That makes you "a goddess", but only if you're a man.

I suppose you could argue that he prefers male victims though.

It was quite noticeable, wasn't it.

As I said earlier, there were times when I felt a bit sorry for IW and that was one of them. It must be difficult to realise that the affirmation and fawning from people around you is not necessarily genuine.

You’ve got to question what’s wrong with some of these politicians’ critical thinking abilities. It’s like they’ve been utterly brainwashed.

Actually quite important as they're talking about the mental health of the women.

Unit 4 too which sounds v problematic as it holds the most vulnerable women.

In The past was a very positive supportive environment but now is a dumping ground.

I think it’s important to keep responding to the oft-repeated claim that trans people are extremely vulnerable by asking: to what?

Because, the answers to those questions are likely to shift the debate considerably.

• What exactly are trans women more vulnerable to than the result of the population?
• What are trans men more vulnerable to?

(The answers are likely not the same)

Sometimes the sort-of-answer given is about rates of self harm and suicide. Sometimes that’s framed as if it’s other people imposing this on trans people. But that’s ridiculous.

If the risk to be managed is poor mental health leading to self harm and suicide, then the solution is acknowledging the mental health issue and providing much better mental health support.

Instead, we get deeply irresponsible narratives about genocide by inevitable suicide due to lack of adequate validation. And, yes, trans people - especially adolescent females - are hugely vulnerable to this incredibly harmful narrative.

Or we are given an answer about increased rates of violence - often given based on US information and with important context left out. It matters a great deal that the increased risk of violence is actually a result of being involved in prostitution, for example. It’s not a trans vulnerability; it’s a sex work vulnerability.

These claims are disingenuous. They want to obscure the problem because it is deeply inconvenient to admit that sex work is, in fact, not some wonderful empowering thing for the vast majority of people involved in it. And those who don’t experience violence from ‘customers’ are lucky rather than anything else.

The crime statistics for the UK indicate that TW are less vulnerable to being murdered than the population as a whole. Even when compared to men. Far, far less vulnerable than women are. It’s likely the same is true for violence generally.

Even if TW are more vulnerable (than other male humans) to violence in male spaces, the problem is male violence. Making women and girls more vulnerable by letting any man who wants to use their single sex spaces is not the answer that problem.

Every time a politician stands up and claims that self-ID and doing as you’re told ‘being kind’ are requirements because trans people are the most vulnerable people need to ask ‘vulnerable to what?’ How are they vulnerable? Is validation and going along with their fictions the answer to this vulnerability?

Just about to watch now.

I know many people disagree but can we please not be nasty about people's appearances on here? I'm sure many women could be called masculine-looking and it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to whether they are women.

There is enough to criticise about what people claim to think. I won't be part of mocking appearances. It's what India does, ffs, and we are better than that.

Asymmetrically sized eyes can be due to medical conditions.

(Sometimes whether someone appears to be male is relevant, such as when analysing claims that no-one will know if TW are in female toilets - a transphobic claim in itself, as gender is not gender expression and being a woman shouldn't require any type of appearance - but this isn't the case in this thread).

India even got away with an incorrect answer on Pointless. Nobody else ever has. I was so disappointed in Richard Osman.
Whaaaat? Was is acknowledged that the answer was wrong but she kept the point? (Or i guess that isn't how it works on pointless but you know what I mean).

I think it is significant that the audience applauded the use of s35 when the tory mp was speaking. That surprised me. Glasgow is generally pro independence and pro snp. (Glasgow voted to leave the union in 2014 i think.) The bbc do try to make the audience representativ. I thought that Scots who were against the grr Bill might still dislike the UK government's intervention because it interferes with Scotland running itself. But if this audience is anything to go by ppl are so usupportive of the Bill that they are even pleased that the UK government is stepping in.

That was the most flaming and heated qt I have seen in ages. Maybe since brexit. Or maybe this was worse.

The tra types in the audience have nothing clear to say. There's no actual point, it's all based on feelings and moral indignation. But the actual moral code that is being offended against is never fully articulated, and anyhow the rest of us never signed up to it. The young man's head shaking was like a believer hearing blasphemous speech. I don't feel 'bless him' about him. These young people have an illiberal approach that they are taking into institutions and work places. It is the opposite of the liberalism and pluralism which we need to underpin our democracy.

I noticed the silence after IW's "contribution" and did not feel sorry for IW. It's abundantly clear that those who refuse to acknowledge women's concerns and thought others agree with them, are going to have a rude awakening when they step outside of their bubbles.

Women have been nice, been patient, read all points of view, engaged in the science, in the polling data, in the minutiae of the law, even gone researching the Hansard from the GRA stitch up debates.

We know full well what's been done to us. And we won't stand for any more of it.

I don't understand why NS and Jenny Gilruth can't just say what they really believe - that Isla Bryson is a woman. According to the bill passed in the Scottish Parliament, any man who says he is a woman is a woman. That is what self-ID means. Everyone is who they say they are. Nobody else can have any say at all in the matter. There can be no exceptions to this. Exceptions mean there is gatekeeping which goes against the principle of self-ID.

Do they not understand what self-ID means?

Bloody hell, IW can't answer a question can they? Up there with the most tedious politicians. What has number of articles got to do with single-sex spaces?

What bigots don’t realise is that dogs come in various shapes and sizes, and some are even smaller than the average cat. Also, some cis dogs have pointy ears. You can’t always tell if the animal you see walking on a lead, sleeping in a dog basket or chasing a ball is a cat or a dog, so self ID is the only system that works.

Some cats and dogs simply don’t fit into your binary boxes. However, I do concede that if you leave a box (of any kind) in the sun, a cat will probably get to it first and do their best to make themselves fit.