Kelly Holmes changes her mind on trans inclusion in women's sports?

[HootyMcboob76]

"Equally, the vast majority of sport is played on a local playing field where taking part and inclusion, as well as physical and mental health benefits are perhaps more important than winning.’"
www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/dame-kelly-holmes-admits-she-was-previously-ignorant-about-trans-athletes/ar-AA16qIej?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=669f524540e644eeb669ce51f43b9e00

I read this as her saying that women should just be grateful to be playing, never mind if a biological male beats them! In other words, be kind, shut up, and be prepared to lose out on a medal, as long as the special male athlete gets to participate.

She is now a proud member of the special community so apparently a gay woman cannot continue to fight for women's sports being for women?

Other gay female athletes (e.g. Martina Navratilova) have still been able to say that natal males should not be included in women's sports.

Does anyone read this article differently?

I don’t read it differently but I also can’t find the original source material quoted (a story on her instagram).

It’s also being reported in Diva magazine.
Diva Magazine

Can anyone else find the instagram story they mention?

Well this is disappointing.

twitter.com/qitweets/status/1615026400259448833?

This looks to be the video - the quote is at the end. I guess she’s been subject to some intensive re-education sessions.

Very hard to respect this, nonetheless.

If that's the case then why have any rules for sports unless it's a professional competition? Why not say there's no points, no fouls, no restrictions on what you can do in the sport (except for safety)? So she won't mind me joining my local basketball team and asking that they let me bring the basket right down, walk around with the ball etc? Participation is important but you're participating for the winning, otherwise it's a random activity not a sport!

Oh good. So women's sports are now reduced to: "Ladies, just be grateful you can still take part. Isn't it nice to be out in the fresh air together?"

She's allowed to change her mind. It's somewhat limited as well - basically, if winning doesn't matter, then include male athletes as women. I think she's wrong here and quite fed up about it, but then i dont agree with having a separate trans games either in her first statement- trans people aren't a separate sex or a separate species.

basically, if winning doesn't matter, then include male athletes as women.

In which case they shouldn't be keeping score, taking results or awarding any sort of prizes. In which case, as Headoutofplace, it's not a sport, is it?

As so often, the conflict arises from the attempt to have it both ways. And doing so in the way that maximally disfavours women.

In a lot of non-contact sports, there would indeed be no problem with men competing alongside women - the ONLY issue then is that they should be ranked separately.

If you really believe "taking part and inclusion, as well as physical and mental health benefits are perhaps more important than winning", then surely that taking part should be enough for the "trans" athletes - they just shouldn't win women's prizes?

Why are these arguments only used to deprive women of things?

*If you really believe "taking part and inclusion, as well as physical and mental health benefits are perhaps more important than winning", then surely that taking part should be enough for the "trans" athletes - they just shouldn't win women's prizes?

Why are these arguments only used to deprive women of things?*

Exactly. Why aren't trans athletes just happy to carry on taking part in their own sex category then?

Totally. I definitely don't agree with her, being the kind of reckless extremist who thinks women's sport is for women.

Sad. Dame Kelly of all people.

Firstly the article is wrong, she didn’t come out as a lesbian, she came out as gay. It was notable at the time that the word lesbian wasn’t used, it seems like no one wants to publicly be a lesbian anymore.

Second, when she did come out as gay, there was criticism of her previous statements (note previous posters here in the thread) and awful abuse on the Stonewall Twitter announcement for her previously expressed views including being told she “can still eat a dick”.

Which makes it all the more disappointing that she’s caved to the demands of those who have abused her. The article in the OP reads like she’s switched to “be kind” mode. She also falsely claims trans athletes are being prevented from competing in elite sport which is a lie. They can compete just like anyone else - in their own sex category.

But most galling is her selling out the everyday girl, the woman woman with no name who misses out at grass roots level because the well-being of males at that level is now more important to those women and girls achieving the success they seek.

I supported her. After she was treated awfully when Rachel McKinnon/Veronica Ivy set the rabid TRAs on her and Holmes was publicly admonished by Specialized, I sent her a thank you email and donated to her foundation. She hasn’t learnt anything new. She can’t have been paying attention to what Martina or Sharron Davies has been saying, or Emma Hilton or Ross Tucker.

For reasons known only to her, she’s let her abusers win and thrown all common sense out of the window to “be kind” to a community that tells her to “eat a dick”. She’s going to learn that nothing she does will be good enough, and in the meantime she’s selling women and girls down the river.

I played Volleyball from age 10 or maybe 11 and even at the lowest junior league level, when we could barely get the serve across the net, we wanted to win, not just participate. When I stopped playing competitively on a high level I played in a social mixed team and it is like a different sport, especially for female players. Still fun but I'd never would have played it with the same passion and dedication that I invested in playing in an all female team. Why are girls and women expected to sacrifice their ambitions and enjoyment for males?

She's entitled to change her mind, but let's be honest, she hasn't done so because of the physical evidence supporting the inclusion of this group of males in the female category, has she? I wonder who she's been listening to.

I saw this being reported gleefully by Pink News.

Trying to be objective and calm, I think maybe she's trying to please everyone. She's obviously quite new to being a public member of the LGB community and she comes across as wanting to make sure she's supporting that community.

There's quite a bit of nuance in her words. So the headlines are all that she supports trans athletes and that they shouldn't be prevented from participating blah blah. But she also says that it would depend on the sport as they don't all require strength/power etc and she goes on to say that it's important that a "scientific" approach is taken.

So while I eye-rolled hard at the "just be thankful you can take part" element - I do wonder if she still secretly believes that trans women should be barred from most sports because that's what the science would suggest? She's just having to speak in code to avoid pissing off the TRA brigade?

It is bloody disappointing though that she can't just acknowledge the clear and obvious issue with TW competing in female sports. Martina Navratilova is part of the LGB community and she has no issue speaking out for women's sports, and rights.

When Kelly talks about the importance of inclusion and the benefits to physical and mental health, I presume she's not taking account of women who are having the shit kicked of them playing rugby or other contact sports against male-bodied individuals.

This looks to be the video - the quote is at the end. I guess she’s been subject to some intensive re-education sessions.

It's pretty hard to read, even trying to pause it frame by frame. It's a woolly nothing #bekind statement. She seems quite pissed off that the DM misquoted her new quote, and I don't blame her for that.

"A more nuanced way" to allow males into women's sports? It's not for her to decide whether amateur sportswomen should allow a male into their team and it's quite frankly disgusting that she's pressuring them to do so.

*If you really believe "taking part and inclusion, as well as physical and mental health benefits are perhaps more important than winning", then surely that taking part should be enough for the "trans" athletes - they just shouldn't win women's prizes?

Quite!

The thing is also that there are going to be a lot of female sports players who will be pro excluding women. It's daft to pretend all women agree on this. When I was competing I might well have bristled at the suggestion from others that there were physical limits to me, that women's bodies are different. Competitive sport requires you to remove mental barriers like that.

Unfortunately the reason I was able to remove those mental barriers was that I was competing in women's teams. On the occasions that changed - like practising starts against a men's crew- the mental barriers turned out to be real ones. But it didn't happen often.

I'd agree the detail of what she says is quite nuanced. Because Dame Kelly knows. She's an athlete, a veteran, she knows.

She hasn't changed her mind. She has been 'educated' and sold out every girl and woman.

How very kind of her.

I suspect she'd feel differently if she was still competing.

The fastest time at 800m for a man is 1.54 for men it's 1.40, that's a huge difference.

She's so bloody sexist. Women are meant to be kind and inclusive and to play sports for healthiness and fun and sociability. It's mean for women to be competitive and want to win, especially if winning comes at the expense of men (the important people). She should deal with her internalised misogyny and stop pulling up the ladder on other women.

How pleasant that she can feel the need to crush all the hopes and dreams of future female sports stars. Top work Kelly.

I mean, she could have just said, you know, nothing?

Local amateur sports not part of a league are just for fun. Unless there's safety reason why not it should be inclusive

Maybe they should be entirely mixed sex then. No? Then there's no justification for males to participate as "women."

This is from Queer Insider stating this is Dame Kelly’s statement.

“As a former international athlete, a gay women and now openly a member of the LGBTQIA community, I want to firstly say I totally support my Trans Siblings”, she says. Then admitting: “I have been ignorant in the past about the fight of the Trans community and I now want to see fair and conclusive outcome for those whose gender differs from that assigned at birth, in all walks of life, including sport.””

“Firstly I do not believe in a blanket approach. A more nuanced approach of looking at the individual person, sport and level is much better way of keeping sport fair.”

“For example, there are many sports in which skill, practice and experience pay much more than physical ability. Equally, the vast majority of sport is played on a local playing field where taking part and inclusion, as well as physical and mental health benefits are perhaps more important than winning.”

“There is definitely a discussion to be had as the matter is so complex, but saying that all Trans athletes shouldn’t compete in elite sport isn’t right.”

“It is important everyone in society is treated fairly and for sport, a scientific approach on this matter is taken, like in other countries were scientific reviews have already happened.”

So, she effectively throws non-elite sportswomen under the bus. With plenty of fence sitting otherwise.

note that currently sports do not ‘ban’ transitioned males from any sport. They still can play in the male sports divisions.

If this is her statement it is not really very clear what she is saying because she doesn’t actually state that males should sometimes be allowed to compete in female sports categories.

She allows people to draw that conclusion though.

Mostly those kind of activities are though. Go to a spin class and it’ll be mixed sex. Same with the climbing wall. Or a surf group session down at the beach.

Personally I wouldn’t elect to play 5-a-side mixed sex because, frankly, the middle aged men my idiot husband plays with all seem to spend the time injuring each other. Maybe they’d be nicer if it were mixed sex. But I’m not going to investigate that.