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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

UK Government confirms it will block Scottish GRR

392 replies

IwantToRetire · 16/01/2023 17:44

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64288757

OP posts:
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GailBlancheViola · 18/01/2023 12:45

The problem is that the legislation is a complete mess.

It is and it all starts with the GRA2004 which is a dogs dinner - gender and sex are mixed up throughout. The whole bloody lot needs scrapping and either re-drafting or binning. We need explicit, clear, watertight laws that protect women and children with NO wriggle room or obfuscation regarding gender and sex.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 18/01/2023 13:17

If a service was minded to limit their service to bio females I'm struggling to see how the EA would help a formerly male GRC holder.

There are lots of situations where SSE exist (allowing the exclusion of the opposite sex) but there are fewer where it is permissible to exclude someone on the basis of gender reassignment. This is what I understand from the government information given out a couple of days ago:

A male person (regardless of gender identity) who does not have a GRC can be excluded from membership of a sports club under the SSE. However, a biologically male person with a GRC cannot (because they are legally female) and there is no "gender reassignment exception" for membership of a sports club.

For a rape crisis centre, it is permissible under the EA to exclude legally male people (so bio males without a GRC) under the SSE (ie a blanket ban). It is also permissible under the EA to refuse access to the service to a bio male with a GRC if it is objectively justifiable (ie a proportionate means to a legitimate aim). But this is done (I think) on a case-by-case basis rather than by blanket ban.

Both of these things are recognised by the government as being a problem which already exists in the way that the EA functions. By massively expanding the number eligible for a GRC (and changing the demographic of that group), the GRR is making an existing problem worse.

I don't know how this fits with the Haldane interpretation though.

I should also point out that IANAL and the courts may find the government's interpretation of the EA incorrect.

RoyalCorgi · 18/01/2023 13:25

Thanks, Jemima, that is a useful explanation, though the whole business is in obvious need of clarification. I imagine this is why Sex Matters have launched their petition to amend the Equality Act.

The relevant words in the Haldane judgement are:
“the founding principle [of the Gender Recognition Act] is a broad one, that the acquired gender becomes the person’s sex ‘for all purposes’ subject to any other enactments, or the statutory exceptions listed.”

It really depends what is meant by "statutory exceptions". It could just mean the statutory exceptions listed in the GRA, couldn't it? Trans men not being able to inherit titles ahead of a younger brother being the main one. Or could it also mean statutory exceptions listed elsewhere, ie in the Equality Act?

It seems bizarre to me that the word "sex" can mean "biological sex" in some parts of the Equality Act and "legal sex" in other parts.

Waitwhat23 · 18/01/2023 13:32

In terms of sport, the main point is whether it is fair and safe -

'It also makes it lawful to restrict participation of transsexual people in such competitions if this is necessary to uphold fair or safe competition, but not otherwise.'

From www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/14/5

As there is an obvious safety issue for women if they are competing against a male in contact sports, it's clear why there should be categories based on sex.

In terms of fairness, again, women are put at a disadvantage when competing against males. Teenage male athletes can beat women's Olympic records - www.boysvswomen.com. 'Transition' or the holding of a GRC does not negate male advantage. This is why males competing in female competitions jump from low 200 ranking to number 1 (Lia Thomas) or why middle aged males can beat women in their 20's at the peak of their fitness (countless examples).

Waitwhat23 · 18/01/2023 13:38

And English Rugby has decided to prioritise the safety of women, in contrast to many other sporting bodies -

www.englandrugby.com/news/article/rfu-council-votes-in-favour-of-change-to-gender-participation-policy

Signalbox · 18/01/2023 14:06

A male person (regardless of gender identity) who does not have a GRC can be excluded from membership of a sports club under the SSE. However, a biologically male person with a GRC cannot (because they are legally female) and there is no "gender reassignment exception" for membership of a sports club.

There’s an exception for sport within the GRA itself though isn’t there?

StatisticallyChallenged · 18/01/2023 14:27

Just read the full section 35 letter - it really is quite apparent how far out of bounds this is, and how poor.

Interestingly paragraph 28 covers the earlier discussion and seems to suggest that you can exclude GRC holders from sex segregated services and spaces (but not associations and schools etc, covered later)

"Adverse effects identified are of particular concern in relation to the operation of the 2010 Act’s provisions relating to sex-segregated spaces, services, competitive sports and occupational requirements. These allow for the exclusion of people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, including those with a GRC, where their exclusion can be objectively justified. Given the significantly increased possibility of someone with malicious intent being able to obtain a GRC and, as this risk will be widely known, there is a related risk of people no longer feeling safe in any sex-segregated setting and self-excluding from such settings even though they could significantly benefit from them."

Waitwhat23 · 18/01/2023 14:29

Signalbox · 18/01/2023 14:06

A male person (regardless of gender identity) who does not have a GRC can be excluded from membership of a sports club under the SSE. However, a biologically male person with a GRC cannot (because they are legally female) and there is no "gender reassignment exception" for membership of a sports club.

There’s an exception for sport within the GRA itself though isn’t there?

Yes, link to legislation given below. The fairness and safety point means that transwomen could be included in the women's category if it was a non contact sport in which there is no male advantage (I think shooting and dressage have been mentioned in the past as such types of sports). However, in contact sports where women's safety will be compromised and fairness will be impeded, then those who are male (even if they are 'legally a woman') can and should be excluded.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 18/01/2023 14:43

I don't think those particular words are relevant here royalcorgi. I think that the UK government agree that the GRC changes a person's sex for EA purposes. Which is why they say that a bio male with a GRC can't be excluded from women's spaces using SSE.

However, within the single sex exceptions there is also (for some situations) the possibility of specifically excluding those who are legally women but only because of a GRC. A sort of "gender reassignment" exception, within the single sex exception category.

waitwhat23, you're right, that was a bad example. Sports (particularly competitive sports) are allowed to use the "gender reassignment exception" as well as the SSE. (I think.) I could have chosen a better one - eg the WI. I don't think it would be legal to exclude a biological male with a GRC from a women's only group like that. But I don't know exactly how the "proportionate means to a legitimate aim" works in practice - I think most of it comes through case law, so we'd need a test case.

RoyalCorgi · 18/01/2023 14:49

However, within the single sex exceptions there is also (for some situations) the possibility of specifically excluding those who are legally women but only because of a GRC. A sort of "gender reassignment" exception, within the single sex exception category.

I see. That makes some kind of sense.

Waitwhat23 · 18/01/2023 14:55

I think in the case of the WI, it might be difficult to legally exclude transwomen. The single sex services exemption seems to focus mostly on services in which women will either be physically or emotionally vulnerable and unless the members of the WI group are changing their clothes for any reason (swimming or exercise session for example) or making disclosures of some kind, then I think groups who are meeting for purely social reasons might find it difficult to remain as a 'woman's' social group.

However, as we all know, the nature of a group changes when it is mixed sex. Women have found themselves sidelined or feel unable to talk about things which they would be able to in a single sex group. I can imagine that if the nature of a group changed, they might find members voted with their feet.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 18/01/2023 15:26

I think groups who are meeting for purely social reasons might find it difficult to remain as a 'woman's' social group.

I agree whatwait23. But this is (part of) why I think it is a mess. What possible argument is there for excluding all legal men that does not also apply to transwomen?

It is women's shared biology, history and ongoing discrimination battles that mean we need the WI, breastfeeding groups, women-at-work groups. Men are ordinarily excluded from such groups because they do not have the same biology, history or ongoing discrimination as women. Transwomen (with or without a GRC) also do not share the same biology and history, and the discrimination they face is different.

Maybe I should start an AIBU "why aren't men allowed in the WI - isn't that discrimination?" I could use the answers to compile a list of reasons why it is okay to have women's social groups, and then see how many of those reasons would apply to biological males with a GRC. (I'm only half joking.)

StatisticallyChallenged · 18/01/2023 15:35

Makes me think you could also have single sex schools who can't exclude from the school as a whole but could use the service specific exemptions for specific elements, which could be interesting

I'm thinking of smaller all girls schools - who won't have any male facilities except for male staff facilities. Maybe even those with small boarding houses where everyone sleeps in dorms. Could they be in a position of saying "legally you're female so you may attend the school. But you will be excluded from the changing rooms, the boarding house, a range of sports and possibly the loos"

I may be wrong though.

IwantToRetire · 18/01/2023 15:38

I think the explanation up thread about Lady Haldane rulings is wrong. She wasn't just indicating Forensic Medicine (or whatever it was) but referencing the EA which has the specific example of say Rape Crisis Centres.

And as Scottish Ministers and trans activists are all saying post Haldane that single sex exemptions remain as they always have been, I just dont understand why this keeps coming up.

I think certainly there is a case, not just Scotland although that seems to have been more overt, where funders, possibly management committee members, have intimidated women's groups who could legitimately put in place single sex services into not doing this. But equally Scotland has been guilty of overtly perverting the SSE by allowing a funded group (ERCC) to advertise a post as being under the SSE and then appoint a trans woman. And when complaints were made nothing was done. (Didn't two women in Scotland ex DV workers set up a group to campaign against this?)

This is why I said in an earlier post it would be really good it women's groups in Scotland were able to compile examples of when this was happened and / or funders implied they would lose money if not trans inclusive. (Let alone the fact that if they have been advertising SSE services under the EA and then not providing them, they are guilty of misrepresentation)

Add to which the hypocrasy of NS who went to such lengths to not promote SSE services up until a few days ago.

All the other areas where any of us would have thought that the provision of SSS was obvious are caught up in the catch 22 of having to prove they are proportionate.

I think for the public at large the issue of 16 year olds being able to get a GRC based on self identityand then being able to claim the right to attend an all girls school, is one that they will more readily see as problematic.

But this comes back to the fact that the EA was drafted on the basis that GRC protected characteristics too precedent over sex as a proptected characteristic. So sex based rights aren't automotic, except when they can prove to qualify as an exemption.

Whereas, it would have been more obvious, and easier to administrate, if sex based rights remained primary, and in a very few instances there were exemptions for GRC holders for purely bureaucratic purposes such as a marriage or death certificate.

But what is so sad if that here we are, and many on twitter, facebook etc., going on about the vital necessity of SS services and yet there has been no statement from the very service providers saying they are glad NS and other ministers have confirmed the right to sex based single sex services, or groups in other parts of the UK saying they are glad that the need for SS services has been recognised.

What a topsy turvy world.

And no, I dont think this is because of fear of funders, I think that too many in executive positions in the women's sector are too aligned, if not to the Labour Party itself, but the strands of the left stream that mean you cant in any way say maybe the Tories have got something right.

Just like they will issue a joint statement about the Met, as though it were the source of all violence against women, because the Met is the pet hate figure to the left, but dont equally criticise other institutions where men abuse their power position to harass and sexually assualt women.

OP posts:
FireFlyBoogaloo · 18/01/2023 16:29

This was transparently Sturgeon's plan all along. She is an obsessive, single-issue ideologue and she saw a chance to force Westminster to take action against ScotGov, which she could then use to gin up support for independence with the "this is a full frontal attack" schtick.

She cares nothing for either women's rights or trans rights (whatever that means). It was always a means to an end.

Unfortunately for this wannabe queen, the Scottish people seem to be both strongly opposed to the GRA reforms and smart enough to see through her transparently ideological, dangerous plans.

Dougalskeeper · 18/01/2023 17:01

Fireflyboogaloo, I have to say I disagree with you saying this is just a ruse to further independence. Sturgeon has little interest in independence, devolution suits her fine - or did up until now. I believe she really wants to introduce queer theory into the government so she can be lauded by the woke. She has opened up politics to the totally unsuitable by stupid quota requirements also. You're right though in that she has no interest in women's rights unless the are the male sort.

Waitwhat23 · 18/01/2023 20:20

Saw this on Twitter - it's apparently from the recent TRA protest outside Downing Street. It made me laugh - us pesky women, all 6 of us!

UK Government confirms it will block Scottish GRR
Boiledbeetle · 18/01/2023 20:22

Waitwhat23 · 18/01/2023 20:20

Saw this on Twitter - it's apparently from the recent TRA protest outside Downing Street. It made me laugh - us pesky women, all 6 of us!

Love it. I mean seriously! Please tell me that's an actual sign!😂

Notaflippinclue · 18/01/2023 20:23

MUMSNET RULES OK

IcakethereforeIam · 18/01/2023 20:25

MUMSNET RULES UK

I think you'll findGrin

MichelleScarn · 18/01/2023 20:25

Also hoping it's a real sign!!

Boiledbeetle · 18/01/2023 20:25

Netmums don't get a sign I notice, just us special women!

mrshoho · 18/01/2023 20:34

That's class 👏 made my day

PronounssheRa · 18/01/2023 20:49

Waitwhat23 · 18/01/2023 20:20

Saw this on Twitter - it's apparently from the recent TRA protest outside Downing Street. It made me laugh - us pesky women, all 6 of us!

I bet they need a trigger warning at school/college when they learn about suffragettes and women being given the vote 🤯

nilsmousehammer · 18/01/2023 21:16

Keep mums out of politics! No women allowed to meet and talk unsupervised! Grin

They only ever tackle the one with the ball.

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