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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Talking to teens

39 replies

Elnetthairnet · 24/12/2022 19:51

How to talk to teens? Huge argument/debate with my DD and DS regarding my opinions and they just can’t seem to accept any discussion. If you say you’re the opposite sex, you are. Despite them also saying that it would be ridiculous for me to say I was a different race or a cat, even though it is as impossible for me to be either of those things as it is for me to change sex.

How do they reconcile this doublethink and how can I challenge it? They also said ‘why does it even matter to you?’ I said because as a member of society and as a mum it bothers me that young people are being offered treatments where the long term effects are not yet known and the benefits are uncertain - I think this is unethical and any treatment should be evaluated. But this idea is apparently also ridiculous and I should just accept that the treatment will help people feel better as they have body dysmorphia. Pointed out that many grow out of this without radical treatment and that we don’t use affirmation of beliefs for other people with body dysmorphic conditions such as bulimia. ‘You’re just wrong Mum, this is different’

argh! Is it even worth having these discussions? I am just seen as an out of touch terf. How have kids been so completely and utterly brainwashed? My kids are both straight and very much present as their biological gender, so this isn’t personal to them either. I am feeling a little bit of misogyny from them as well which is disappointing- my opinion is not valid because I am a middle aged white woman so what do I know.

OP posts:
Elnetthairnet · 24/12/2022 19:54

Also said that I have no problem with people presenting as the opposite sex, and am very happy to use their preferred names, pronouns etc if it makes them happy. But I will not accept that they have actually become female or male, because that is impossible. This is apparently incredibly offensive, even though it is also true.

OP posts:
SirVixofVixHall · 24/12/2022 20:00

My teenagers agree with me, thankfully. However the number of other parents I know who say they have been “educated” by their teens, and that this is “just like being gay was treated in the eighties” has come as a surprise.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/12/2022 20:01

I stopped talking to mine about it, unless they started the conversation.

They have all come back to reality and reason. It didn’t actually even take that long. Maybe a few months.

I don’t think it is productive to keep arguing with them. Let them know your opinion when it comes up, accept they have a different take and be chill about it. Then in my experience they will try to convert you to their way of thinking every so often which gives you the opportunity to calmly, confidently and rationally explain your position. Then when they get frustrated because they have no rational arguments to counter yours let it drop again until next time they bring it up. Before you know it hey presto they have worked it out for themselves and you’re on the same side again.

DahliaBlue · 24/12/2022 20:04

No idea. Weird how they are captured. Even trans people know you can't change sex. It is in your DNA. You can change gender but gender is a wholly concept that many people do not recognise. It is all a weird load of nonsense that I cannot quite fathom as it is illogical and trips itself up at many points.

Bard6817 · 24/12/2022 20:08

It’s a lose lose situation.

They will be threatening suicide next. It’s part of the play book.

We had 3 years of it.

Half the class were bisexual or boys, in an all girls school.

She changed her name. Multiple times.

She was a rollercoaster of up and down, up were fantastic we thought she pulled through it, next day she goes out for a walk, comes back an hour later, followed by 3 paramedics and police, because she rang them to tell them she was suicidal.

Mum refused to accept it - and so refused to comply. I played good cop, understanding, empathic, listened, talked about it, just asking her to wait before going down the medicinal route…. Both of us were in the wrong.

As far as i’m concerned, it’s child abuse.

She finally came through it - came to me one day and said she was going to change her name again, ok i said, to what? Ivy…. I said that’s a girls name, yeah she said…. Ok…. Suits you i said, and that was it - all over with.

She did tell us later the ‘well-being’ teacher at school was responsible and that she felt activated by her and was pushed forward as an activist and actively trying to convert other girls and she felt bad about it.

This was a very expensive private school, £20k+ a year.

All i can say, is thank god it’s over. Thank god for Maya Forrester.. And thank god these sexual deviants are being found out slowly, but it’s all coming to light now.

It’s child abuse.

I do feel for you, i wouldn’t wish going through that with your child, on anyone.

From what we read, researched, there’s a playbook of escalation in the event that someone in their life doesn’t ‘confirm’ their new identity. It’s sickening.

Unless you say ‘yes’ and ‘agree’ no matter what you do, it will be wrong. I’m so sorry.

I didn’t give two hoots about Trans before any of this, but seeing what this ideology put my child through, it nearly killed her, using her emotions and autism against her, her dislike of a girls experience of puberty.

This isnt what you want to hear…. There is quite literally nothing you can do.

ReeseWitherfork · 24/12/2022 20:28

A TW on Reddit told me you physically can change sex, and that it’s gender that’s assigned at birth. Not even worth replying to that one.

ReeseWitherfork · 24/12/2022 20:29

Sorry that was a reply to @DahliaBlue

JoodyBlue · 24/12/2022 20:31

On the back of this recommendation I listened to the Oli London interview while cooking tonight www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4703138-oli-london-on-triggernometry

Listen to what he says near the end of the interview when he talks about the influence of TikTok on young people. I really fail to see how any parent can listen to this, not conclude that abuse of vulnerable young people and children is taking place in plain sight. The difference for prior generations is the adults held the line. Nowadays so many just join in.

Yes it is worth talking to your children, don't stop. It is essential.

Oystersandwhelks · 24/12/2022 20:35

I make my opinion known. Repeatedly. They find it annoying. But they have now both indicated that they agree with me.

waterwitch · 24/12/2022 22:20

Keep asking questions - I just kept saying ‘but I don’t understand that bit, can you explain it’ - there’s plenty you can say that about! Also ‘but does wearing a dress and make up make you a woman?’ <shocked face> ‘what if you wear trainers with it? Do you need heels as well?’ Etc. Don’t make it too obvious to start with, they generally work out for themselves it makes no sense. Then encourage them to read detransitioners’ stories….

Runningintolife · 24/12/2022 22:31

I do say 'sex and gender are different, (sex can't change but gender is cultural and therefore can change depending on your attitude towards it) and I think sex matters for some things'. But I don't bring it up much.

InfluenzalA · 25/12/2022 15:27

My 13 yr old is very aware of and respects my view on the immutability and importance of sex. She competes in sport which provides a very easy real life discussion point that she can draw on and really understand the repurcussions.

However, she has to be almost bilingual and speak the new order at school and with friends. School push it all hugely and it is very much bound up in being good and kind there.

I rave on about the patriarchy and sexism at almost every turn so it's parts of a wider education and awareness set for my DC.

Crouton19 · 26/12/2022 13:42

‘why does it even matter to you?’

I don’t have teens but this argument has come up in my family (which has been touched by GII) and I’ve always responded that I’m hopefully never going to be in a womens prison or DV refuge but that doesn’t mean I should abandon those who are to the risk of violence and abuse from TIMs. What if we applied that approach to everything? I’m not directly affected by homelessness, or poverty, or childhood cancers, or wildlife extinction; should we only care about issues which directly affect us? What issues are we permitted to care about on that basis?

That usually gets the point across!

EarthSight · 26/12/2022 18:01

my opinion is not valid because I am a middle aged white woman so what do I know

If they do think this, they are invalidating the opinions of their future self.....because they too will age.

How do they reconcile this doublethink and how can I challenge it? They also said ‘why does it even matter to you?

They ask that last question because they don't know how to answer you. They are able to do this double-think because they are ideologically blinkered.

Also, disagreeing with you at this age allows them to form a separate identity from you, and allows them to maintain a position of lofty superiority to their elders.

I would totally cease discussing this issue with them, or trying to convince them. Carrying on will likely push them further into their corner and make them reluctant to meet you half way or be open minded. You need to allow them space to breathe, think, to start wondering.

I'd buy a copy of Helen Joyce's book. If you buy it online, leave it on the kitchen table very briefly. If they mention it, don't respond and just say it's for you and then put it away on your living room bookshelf and don't talk about it again.

PaterPower · 27/12/2022 05:45

I’ve got two DDs; the eldest is firmly TWAM and the other (who’s had a bigger proportion of her friends ‘transition’ at her all girls school) is still drinking the ‘be kind’ Koolaid.

She tried to use the “I have several friends who are…” line yesterday, when the subject came up in the car (in relation to recent GRR in Scotland).

What seems to work best, with her, is pointing out that none of her ‘trans men’ or enby friends are clamouring to use the mens’ changing rooms or toilets when they’re away from school, and why she thinks that might be.

southbiscay · 27/12/2022 07:20

My ds when he was about 15 seemed to be going along with the general narrative of 'what's the problem if people want to identify differently'. I made a few comments but didn't make a big deal.

But over the years he has heard me discussing the issue with friends and family.

Recently, he made a comment about the whole issue and I asked him what he and his mates (aged around 18-19) thought.

He said that the boys all think it's nonsense but avoid saying much whilst the girls all appear to go along with it.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 27/12/2022 23:07

I think you take the line as being a question of etiquette and manners. If a person identifies as trans their feelings are important and do matter - you just don't accept that their feelings automatically matter more than anyone else's feelings in all circumstances.

If a woman has been raped it may upset her rapist to hear her describe her experience in her own words, the alleged rapist's feelings do not automatically give him the legal or moral right to silence her or censor her words. He may genuinely feel he did nothing wrong, it is ok for her to disagree.

mumarooni · 28/12/2022 22:28

If young people see their friends suffering, and their friends say that the nature of their suffering is their sexed body doesn't match their gendered soul/personality/mind, and it would help alleviate their suffering if their friends validated and recognised aspects of themselves in the most socially legitimised way possible (eg pronouns- public claims about recognising gender), I can see how it feels very important to any kind friend to do that. And I can see how those who refuse seem cold, uninterested, closed, and out of date from that perspective. I think gender dysphoria is such a horrid, complex problem, whatever it's particular causational mechanism it can't be solved through any denial of the reality of the suffering those afflicted. Young people seem to me to be frightened that their friends are in grave danger and great suffering, and unsettled that they can't rely on the adults around them to help in a way that feels safe. acknowledging that fear and hurt first seems a good way to begin any convo with them about the complexities of this. Young people do not seem stupid or brainwashed to me, but grappling with enormous complexities with no easy fixes. Just my tuppence. Though I may be coming from a slightly different position to most on this board...

BlessedKali · 28/12/2022 22:35

..

Talking to teens
WhineyVaginey · 28/12/2022 22:45

My daughter is 15 at an all girls school. None of her friends believe in gender ideology & I'm hugely grateful it isn't pushed in her school at all.

  • I will caveat her friendship group are a mix of 2nd/ 3rd generation Indian, Pakistani, African, Jewish heritage - these girls come from socially conservative homes. There is NO WAY this bollox would fly at home.

She says the girls who go by they/them, he/him are white, middle class & massive grievance attention seekers who mostly get tipped-toed around & avoided.

EvilBee · 29/12/2022 22:02

I mean it's dysphoria, not dysmorphia..and no the number of people post puberty who 'grow out of it' is very low single figure %age..but my question would be, why do you care? Like why would you let this be something to cause difficulties with your kids. It's bad enough when parents of trans young people make it so horrible that their relationship is ruined..but your kids aren't trans

Believe what you want to believe but just agree to disagree?!?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/12/2022 22:23

When you're a parent, the wellbeing of children matters - all children. There is no evidenced data about how many children grow out of confusion about their sex because trans activist groups shut down keeping data as transphobic.

But as the scandals about unethical medical experimentation on children at GIDs emerged & the levels of inappropriate influence that trans activists had on child healthcare was exposed, the whole place has been shut down. (The Cass Review's updates or the CQC's damning inspection of GIDs will update you).
Now the press are alert to what's happened & scandals continue to emerge of dodgy adults working in and with organisations like Mermaids, Educate & Celebrate & Stonewall seeking to talk to other people's children about sex and sexuality. So now responsible adults question and challenge - which is what should always happen in a society where safeguarding children from harm is a priority - even if it upsets those adults seeking to exploit children.

waterwitch · 29/12/2022 22:48

Evilbee, getting the sense your not a parent? Parents generally want to help their young people develop critical thinking and questioning skills so they can develop their own opinions rather than encouraging them to just believe anything that comes along. I notice that posters have asked you to explain your opinions on several threads. You don’t seem to be willing (or able?) to do that

waterwitch · 29/12/2022 23:15

You’re not your

Whyisegg · 30/12/2022 23:37

Interesting that the demographic of 'middle aged women' who find this baffling - perhaps correlates with a higher standard of education in the last century?? Surely it's a very basic fact, understanding human biology?? Are kids not taught this anymore??

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