Language- taking control

[Fieldfly]

Our thoughts are so strongly influenced by language- and we’ve been trained to use certain words.

Although people who wish they were the other sex clearly have every right to exist and should be able to dress as they please IMO we should stop using the words transition and trans (on its own and as a suffix) as it suggests that it is possible to change sex. There is no such thing as a person who has changed sex so the word trans is misleading.

I am starting to say pretend and role-play instead of ‘identifies’ or ‘lives as’ as they are more accurate. People might not like it and might prefer euphemisms, but euphemisms hide truth, that’s their whole point. The truth can sometimes be painful but that’s no reason to lie. The fact that I feel nervous posting this and expect to be deleted is insanity! That I am expected to say that a man who decides to adopt stereotypical women’s clothing is ‘living as a woman’ and can expect to be chastised or worse if I say that he is pretending to be a woman is utterly shocking. I don’t think it’s wrong to pretend to be a woman - just call it what it is and don’t expect other people to join in.

I do not consent to be part of anyone else’s fetish, I do not want to lie to children, I do not want to reinforce vulnerable children’s distress at the reality of their bodies by telling them that they are in the wrong body and should alter it with drugs and surgery, I think a happier outcome is that they are helped to explore the reasons for their distress and hopefully to accept the body they have. I am horrified that I can’t say this in public. I do not want to take part in role-play. So I can’t use misleading words.

And I’d like to know where the word ‘transvestite’ went.

I know the haven’t said anything new, but listening to what’s happening in Scotland is so chilling.

I don't think you're wrong, and I believe the more the TRAs push the more women will push back, and this is one of those ways, it's all of their own doing and if they weren't so damn aggressive then this wouldn't be so toxic.

I’ve been pondering gender and pronouns this morning.

half of my family’s mother tongue died t use pronouns. I’ve been called ‘he’ often. I laugh. Could I now call the police?

Why can a male report me if I called them ‘he’ if he wants to be called ‘she’. What’s the factor X here?

Enemy of truth.

I'm old. Old enough to know you cannot change sex. The way we are being coerced into using language is feeding the confusion of our young. There is already a convenient way to describe this behaviour, LARP.

It'd make more sense in many cases to leave biological descriptors such as male/female out of it and talk about what we are really talking about - feminising or masculinising one's self or appearance.

What does LARP mean?

Live Action Role Play. You know - what those people do who go and dress up as fantasy characters and pretend to have battles etc.

Oh and I totally agree with you btw OP.

It’s so dumb. I was at school with a girl brought up by her dad and 5 brothers. She was very ‘boyish’ in her look and tastes. She was straight but just didn’t ‘do’ womaning. Why should sge? Who decided that girls had to wear skirts, have long hair and dislike rugby?

Absolutely mistaken for a boy even when we were in fifth year. So what?

masculine and feminine is as useful as star sign and favourite flavour if crisps.

masculine and feminine is as useful as star sign and favourite flavour if crisps.

While sex can be very important. Which is why it's important not to conflate the two.

Exactly! Arghh. Drives me nuts.
‘legally change your gender’ what does that even mean ffs?!!!

Instead of broadening the bandwidth of "woman" we need to accept (ha!) a broader definition of man.
If you were born with a penis, you are perfectly allowed to wear make up and a dress and still consider yourself a man.

I agree OP and I too try to use accurate descriptions rather than ideological jargon such as “trans”.

By being forced to use wrong sex pronouns and other gender identity language patterns we are being made complicit in upholding the idea that gender identity is significant and matters and sex is irrelevant. Now in Scotland it seems that if you are against the concept of gender identity you are going to be forced to participate in legitimising the gender identity of individuals- using third female pronouns about a person is what makes that person legally female, if you don’t want a man to be legally recognised as a woman it is important that you continue to refer to him with third person male pronouns but if you do that you will be arrested for hate crime, lose your job etc. I am not sure how this is anything other than tyranny.

Using wrong sex pronouns is no longer arguable as just being polite, it is the defining act of granting a man legal status as a woman and vice versa. The language is creating the legal reality if not the actual reality. The language we use is vitally important correct sex pronouns, and sexed language such as man, woman, mother, father, breastfeeding, sister, brother, son, daughter and yes let’s be honest and factual a man who is pretending to be a woman, a woman who wishes she were a man, a boy who likes to play with whatever, a girl who like to do whatever etc

Not if you want to be able to act and say what you like and be unaccountable. And attack women whilst you are at it.

Good thread OP!

Like @KittensNotMittens, my other languages do not have gendered pronouns. In fact, languages with gendered pronouns are in the minority (wals.info/feature/44A#2/18.0/149.1). People with those native languages often struggle to correctly use gendered pronouns when learning English - it is discriminatory, un-inclusive and the opposite of progressive to add the cognitive demand of lying about sex, on top of this.

Thank you OP, you have expressed exactly what I feel about this. If a man wants to wear a dress/skirt (and it's always dresses/skirts never jogging bottoms) make up and heels, that's fine. He's a man in a skirt, make up and heels and it's on men to be more accepting. Putting on a regressively stereotypical costume does not make him a woman. I find it so deeply offensive at a visceral level that my life and experience of being female is negated in this way. Language matters. Pretending is the right word.

Oh! My first deletion! I'm confused?

The irony of monitors policing a thread about the policing of language.

Did anyone catch my post and can see why? It was so quick!

I expect mine to be deleted too. It seems in an honest thread by women about using language in a way that reflects reality and doesn't negate us, ironically we are being edited in what language we can use.

I'd only just read it, didn't see anything wrong (but, of course, I don't have Righteous understanding so may have missed something).

It's possible the monitors are just clicking on everything on the whole thread, because they're oblivious to the irony.

If we get right down to it, even pretending to be a woman is inaccurate because clothes and lifestyle do not make a woman.

Thanks Kucing and Spider.
I was commenting in very broad terms about non-conformity and mass psychology. I mentioned Self-id. Maybe it was that! I don't think it was anything that hasn't been said before.
I feel a bit shocked.

I've stopped using any word or phrase that contains 'woman' or 'man' to describe someone of the opposite sex. Because it confuses the issue and because nobody can change sex.

I've been standing against the concept of gender roles/stereotypes my whole life (am old!) and I always understood this to be fundamental to feminism - that women (and men) shouldn't feel they have to behave or dress in certain ways because of their sex.

I believe the attack on the way language is used to describe sex and people's relationship to stereotypes around their sex is a deliberate undermining of women's rights and LGB rights. Not to mention child safeguarding.

It's not about 'being kind'. It's about chipping away at people's boundaries.

I think pretending to be a woman is accurate even if the method of pretence questionable, inaccurate, a misunderstanding on the part of the pretender. The pretender’s perception of womanhood may be completely incorrect but still that is what he is clumsily pretending to be. Just like a child pretending to be a cat is going on his or her own perception of cat which might only involve meowing and hopefully will not involve killing and eating mice! Sometimes we ask a child are you pretending to be such and such because we can’t quite work it out without further information.