Language- taking control

[Fieldfly]

Our thoughts are so strongly influenced by language- and we’ve been trained to use certain words.

Although people who wish they were the other sex clearly have every right to exist and should be able to dress as they please IMO we should stop using the words transition and trans (on its own and as a suffix) as it suggests that it is possible to change sex. There is no such thing as a person who has changed sex so the word trans is misleading.

I am starting to say pretend and role-play instead of ‘identifies’ or ‘lives as’ as they are more accurate. People might not like it and might prefer euphemisms, but euphemisms hide truth, that’s their whole point. The truth can sometimes be painful but that’s no reason to lie. The fact that I feel nervous posting this and expect to be deleted is insanity! That I am expected to say that a man who decides to adopt stereotypical women’s clothing is ‘living as a woman’ and can expect to be chastised or worse if I say that he is pretending to be a woman is utterly shocking. I don’t think it’s wrong to pretend to be a woman - just call it what it is and don’t expect other people to join in.

I do not consent to be part of anyone else’s fetish, I do not want to lie to children, I do not want to reinforce vulnerable children’s distress at the reality of their bodies by telling them that they are in the wrong body and should alter it with drugs and surgery, I think a happier outcome is that they are helped to explore the reasons for their distress and hopefully to accept the body they have. I am horrified that I can’t say this in public. I do not want to take part in role-play. So I can’t use misleading words.

And I’d like to know where the word ‘transvestite’ went.

I know the haven’t said anything new, but listening to what’s happening in Scotland is so chilling.

I get that and it's something to think about.

My first reaction though is that I can indulge a child's view but I can't indulge an adult's view of what a woman is, especially as most seem to latch on to regressive stereotypes and because it has a wider impact.

Please can someone tell me how to ask why my post was deleted?

For sure I am not interested indulging adult men! But I think the terminology fits well enough to describe what the man thinks he is doing. The official term used to be a female impersonator. I do see what you mean and I find I usually go with man who wishes he were a woman or other terminology which would probably get a deletion on this site. The main thing is to avoid using the jargon of gender identity ideology and try to use ordinary words being as accurate and factual as possible even if it takes more words.

OP incase you haven't seen it this is a brilliant paper about the importance of using sexed language.

This week I have printed off copies and given one to a colleague who is considering applying for midwifery, another to a colleague who is heading off to train as a health visitor and more to other colleagues.

I have also buckled up and posted it in the hospital intranet....

Whoops. Forgot the link.

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full

Well done Shamed! That paper by Karleen Gribble, Hannah Dahlen, Nils Bergman et al is fantastic

100%

I agree, OP. It's not even the specific words we're compelled to use - it's the fact that everyone is so circumscribed and cautious about using the 'correct' words.

The original meaning of 'safe space' meant that people could discuss contentious issues in good faith, without fear of being judged for 'saying the wrong thing'.

I feel we need to make safe spaces safe for contentious opinions again.

Watching the debate in the Scottish parliament yesterday, it was worth noting that one minister pulled up another for 'verging on hate speech' - as far as I could tell, for talking about 'male-bodied' people in women's prisons.

It's not 'hate' to say that a male is male.

You can report your own post and ask MN. I think any post, probably doesn't matter!

Thanks Arabella

I was thinking about the hate crime implications of this.
Lets say you have a late adult male transitioner with adult children already (not uncommon). As I understand it, if somebody refused to refer to them as their chosen pronouns/female name, they could be guilty of a hate crime. Now suppose that person was their own child refusing to comply and stating, in public, that - 'this man is my father'. Likewise, if it was the mother of younger children, would she be allowed to pursue them in court, as the children's father, for child support?

Really good questions. A summary question would be: Do the Righteous side with the narcissists with the sexual peccadilloes? Answers on a postcard...

Wholeheartedly agree OP. Just when you fell like the tide is turning, things get crazier. Female doesn't even mean female anymore ffs.

Very much feel complicit more & more by using the trans language & will make an effort to stop. Off to read that link now thank you!

Kendodd, it’s madness isn’t it. The idea that an adult’s dad or mum could insist that their child go along with a gender swap role play and the law would be on the side of the fantasist.

Amazing isn’t it. Gawd.

May I suggest "purporting to be a woman". Not that I'd ever dare say that out loud! I do like Trans Identified Male too.

I agree that those who control language control the narrative. I like the fact that women are now taking control of "Terf". What can we do with "Bigot", I wonder? That is thrown about far too much for my liking.

I don’t think trans identified male helps - it still implies that ‘transition’ from m to f is possible. I think ‘gender-swap role-play’ is accurate.

How about:
’pretending his fantasy that he is a woman is real’

This makes complete sense OP. Pretending is accurate. It’s not hateful, it’s factual. ‘A man that is pretending to live as a woman…’ ‘A woman that is pretending to live as a man…’ I hope educators know their influence.

Yep.

I make it very clear my objection to the current shape of trans "rights" activism is not the existence or not of an inner gender, nor whether trans people are genuine in how they subjectively feel (I think the vast majority are) but simply that the two concepts of sex and gender are so different that we should not be using the same language for both.

And once you stop using the same language, you realise there is no basis on which to open up single sex provisions based on gender.

The whole thing (not people's genuine feelings, but what they are being used to demand) is a con trick based on a sleight of language.

Which is, of course, why those who are pushing for the eradication of female people as a political entity are so obsessed with policing the language we can use to talk about ourselves. They want to make it impossible to even speak of female bodied people alone without picking up trans identifying males (and excluding trans identifying females).

Brilliant thread. You are so right that language affects our thoughts and therefore our actions. Compelled speech is one of the marks of dictatorship.

I’ve stopped calling trans-identifying males ‘transwomen’ but I can see the objection to ‘trans’ too.

The point is to eliminate any language that makes it clear there’s a difference.

So you say women, and it’s “Trans women are women!”

Ok so people who are biologically women. “Oh, you’re a biological essentialist! This sounds like eugenics!”

Ok, so natal women. “Trans women are always women!”

Ok women with a vagina and uterus. “Wow you’re obsessed with genitals. And some women have hysterectomies.”

Ok cis women - see, you’re just one of many kinds of women then. A subset.

And so on. Because the goal is to make sex unintelligible so that you can’t express any distinction and therefore any difference in rights. If you say “that person is biologically male and has an advantage in sports” the injustice is obvious. If all of that is treated as beyond the pale and you have to say “that woman has an advantage over other women” then it’s easy to be like “why? Lots of women are tall! Why doesn’t she belong?”

This makes me there is much more than just 'I belong here' in crossing over and using women's spaces because men feel entitled now to claim the identity of a woman rather than just be transvestites.

We are human shields in private facilities.
We are a safe audience (in validating identity or being co opted into a fetish).

Gender fluid is also the new 'part time cross dresser.'

Thinking about it, AGP males would be far more useful than the word transvestite.

I wonder if any sociolinguistic research is being done on these matters. I am unaware of any studies on the impact eg. of the use of "people with" instead of "women", or potential effects of stating one's pronouns. Everything I read on these matters is based on philosophical thought. I would prefer some actual data.

Eh?