Fell out with oldest friend over trans issues discussion

[Babyloniaroma]

I'm so upset. Was at her place at the weekend and the subject came up in conversation. She refused to believe that traditional single-sex women only spaces are under threat from trans activists and all the rest of it. At the height of the conversation, she told me "not to believe everything you see on the internet". I explained to her that "the internet" also included on-line access to a variety of newspapers etc. At this point she walked off, saying I was insulting her intelligence. I felt she had insulted my intelligence by implying that I took information at face value from on-line sources (eg facebook?) and applied no critical thinking of my own.

I did follow her through to the kitchen and said I was not implying that she was stupid etc.

We got through the rest of the evening with our partners and had a civilised and outwardly friendly time, but inside I was so upset and currently I don't know how I feel about my friendship with my oldest mate anymore (40+ years).

I have not written out here the ins and outs of the conversation itself as it would take it too much space. But I am so sad and disappointed that a mature and otherwise very sensible and aware woman can be so dismissive about the trans debate. She is also an avid reader and writer and claimed to be unaware (or did not care) about all the abuse aimed at JK Rowling and other prominent women. She had walked off before I could get around to mentioning Kathleen Stock, Maya Forstater, etc etc.

Both our partners responded differently to the debate as it played out. My friend's husband kept disappearing into the kitchen as he clearly did not want to get involved. Mine did back me as he understands the trans issues. Afterwards I asked him what he thought about the outcome. His view was that I had a better argument as I presented several facts and references, but she lost (and could not refute points) which is why she resorted to a cheap jibe about my getting information from the internet and then walking off in a huff.

This whole trans debate can be really difficult to handle, yet I feel it is wrong to avoid airing the issues in company, for the sake of a quiet life and not risking falling out with friends. But I have come to the conclusion that there are many women who wish to deny or ignore the issues that are out there - and these women would describe themselves as modern, intelligent, self-aware and feminists. I feel at a total loss and very sad.

Give yourself time to grieve that friendship.

Give her time to get over the immediate upset of the evening.

Keep your line of communication open. You have 2 choices: one of you changes their mind; you both agree not to discuss it again.

Otherwise you might find that neither of you will be able to see the other in the same way again. Which is crap!

Good luck working it out.

Honestly this isn't worth losing a friend over. You both believe you are right and neither of you intends any malice. Call her, clear and air, and agree to disagree/never discuss again

These conversations are just so difficult. I find that people who don’t spend their time reading up on this issue just flat out disbelieve me when I talk about trans women in women’s prison for example. They genuinely seem to believe such a thing would never be allowed to happen, and I am scaremongering and mean.

If they then go on to do some research of their own, the friendship has a chance to recover. Not all of them do and it is sad.

It happens, I'm sorry to say. I'd find it very hard to believe if I didn't follow what is happening here. And if I had only a passing interest and had been told that people who have misgivings were merely unreasoning bigots taking out their pointless hatred on a vulnerable minority, I mightn't be very interested in engaging with the subject either.

What I do find upsetting is that people who should know me better than that are very quick to jump to the conclusion that I've somehow changed for the worse and that's where my opinions are coming from on this.

To be fair to your friend some of the stuff that's going on is so batshit it is understandable not to believe it. At least she wasn't saying twaw.

Thank you for your support on this and comments that make complete sense. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way and I feel less alone knowing others are also treading a difficult path when dealing with this subject.

It's hard. One of my oldest friends and my child's godfather is gay. He believes that TWAW and thinks I am transphobic and homophobic purely because I believe they are not. The fact that I supported him when he came out and his family didn't want to know was not enough. He just doesn't want to listen.

Same. I have also had the “but that is ridiculous, it would never happen” response.

You're not alone. I gently raised a point with my good friend that males in girls' sports isn't fair to the girls and my good friend ranted about 'Conservatives and their precious daughters' (she and I are both very much on the left, me more than her). It was such an ugly take from a person who I otherwise consider very thoughtful. I realized she is caught up in a false narrative. When I challenged her with reason, her cognitive dissonance caused her to lash out unreasonably. It's the same with your friend.

I wouldn't apologize for your opinions, but do call her and let her know you've forgiven her lack of feminist values. (just kidding...maybe just agree to disagree for now).

It's a sad time when evidently factual statements like "women are women and transwomen are transwomen" are seen as transphobic.

I have a friend who is very intelligent, switched on and reads 'quality' newspapers, and yet she has fallen for the whole TWAW nonsense hook line and sinker. I have to avoid the entire topic at all cost because I know that our relationship would never recover if I spoke out.

I can only wait for her to come to her senses. Or for the Guardian to see the light. Neither is likely to happen any time soon.

I'm so lucky my old friends are not buying any of it. In fact one even tried to peak me!
I'm so sorry op,

My DD is 25 and I know she thinks I am wrong in being gender critical. We agree not to discuss it.

It seems to me that younger people who are less cynical, with less life experience, and with perhaps some naivety are more likely to hold these opposing views. Also depending on where you get your news/views from you may be seeing more younger and ‘genuine’ transsexuals’, rather than the Karen Sm*th that I think of when the word transwomen is used.

I believe as an older woman I am more aware of how much misogyny there really is out there, and also that men generally have more fetishes and sexual deviations than most women. There are also a subset of people who can’t see or imagine something happening if they haven’t personally experienced it them selves.

I truly believe that sooner or later people like your friend or my Dd will come to see that there is sometimes an ulterior male motive behind some TWs.

So I would try and smooth over the disagreement with your friend, and hold the thought that one day there will be an agreement that’s some Transwomen are not genuine.

I'm sorry, I've lost a couple of friends (not long standing ones, luckily) on this too. I can't pretend that TWAW and I tried to agree to disagree but it didn't work.

Why on earth would you get into this kind of conversation at a social gathering though? Surely, especially with a good friend, you would steer clear of this topic as soon as you realised you had vastly different views on it? Or did you have some desire to convert her to your cause?

I mean some people are happy to be in disagreement on certain issues and continue a friendship but my experience of the TWAW people is that they don't have much in the way of tolerance for those of us who do not agree that TWAW. If your friend is happy to agree to disagree and not discuss it then that's probably the way to go (especially if you think it could harm the relationship). It's not worth risking a 40 year friendship. My D sis is a bit "be kind" and I've resolved not to discuss the matter with her.

For the most part my friends are ignorant of the issues and think “be kind” covers everything. I wish they would at least think “she seems to think it’s important, maybe I should go read up on it a bit”, but no. I’ve managed to get a couple to think more deeply on the subject, but they’re still not very engaged with it. I am in Canada, though, so that doesn’t help.

I think for a lot of people they equate being gender critical with being homophobic and can’t see past that mistaken idea.

I think some people’s brains just work differently and they cannot see it from the other perspective. No point in pushing it, but you could send her links to a couple of podcast interviews with detransitioners if she likes podcasts. Their stories are personal and very moving and she might appreciate there is more to this debate than toilets.

I would back right off and listen.

I'm still waiting for anything convincing to be said, but it does help me. It's important imo to understand what different groups are thinking.

I also found that the only time I got near a real row with a friend on this, I'd been drinking. It's a long time since I thought 'in vino veritas' because it's not true. I'm certainly not going to convince anyone with a half-cut argument.

There genuinely aren't as many crunch points as all that. Other people can believe what they believe, it's not my job to argue them out of it. What does matter is that I won't actively lie about my viewpoints and experiences.

Same here too, except I was the disbelieving cool girl. It just sounded too mad to be real. It sounds like the OPs friend isn't necessarily that invested in it, just had a kneejerk reaction. I wouldn't give up on her. She may well come round in her own time, now that it's more on her radar as something that actual friends of hers might have an unexpected perspective on. I wouldn't bring it up again for now unless she does.

I agree with the others, many people just really think it sounds too crazy to believe.

And if you are engaged, it is very easy to underestimate how ignorant the left wing media keeps its readers on this (and also some other) issues. I've seen more than once where a person like this has said straight out, "well if that was happening a good paper like the Guardian would be reporting on it."

I have friends I fundamentally disagree with on subjects like religion and politics. I think friendships can withstand such differences. It can be challenging at times but it is possible.

i have this situation with a close friend of mine of almost 20 years - although in our case she is GC and I am not. We first argued about it maybe 3 years ago, and since then have mostly avoided the topic, though the last time I saw her we did get into again and it got pretty heated. We are both very emphatic in our positions, and clearly neither of us is ever going to convince the other. But we did manage to identify a few points we do agree on, and ended the evening on friendly terms.

it is possible to maintain a friendship despite holding strongly opposing views on trans issues, but it inevitably puts a bit of a strain on things, if you are both invested and passionate about your point of view, as we are.

I have my sympathy. I had a similar problem with my sister, now we just don't talk about the subject, but I did find it very riling how someone who has known me my entire life should be quick to assume that I am someone who fosters feelings of hatred for an entire segment of the population.

Agree with other posters.

I think you have to view it as though she is following a religion: there’s no point presenting her with facts or trying to convince her god doesn’t exist, just let it be and mark it as a no go subject for your friendship.

I had similar conversation with a friend who has drunk the cool aid, luckily it didn’t end too badly (in fact I was the one who got upset because I felt so exposed and vulnerable by pinning my colours to the ‘terf’ mast and potentially being seen by her as a bigot) but I will never discuss it with her again.

This. Did you genuinely not realise her views would be different?

You can’t convert people on this. If you want to stay friends with people you have to learn to accept they have different views. My dd is 19 and dh and I have learnt that we never, ever discuss anything trans related around her. Ever. It’s just not worth the hassle and we all end up offended and upset.