Fell out with oldest friend over trans issues discussion

[Babyloniaroma]

I'm so upset. Was at her place at the weekend and the subject came up in conversation. She refused to believe that traditional single-sex women only spaces are under threat from trans activists and all the rest of it. At the height of the conversation, she told me "not to believe everything you see on the internet". I explained to her that "the internet" also included on-line access to a variety of newspapers etc. At this point she walked off, saying I was insulting her intelligence. I felt she had insulted my intelligence by implying that I took information at face value from on-line sources (eg facebook?) and applied no critical thinking of my own.

I did follow her through to the kitchen and said I was not implying that she was stupid etc.

We got through the rest of the evening with our partners and had a civilised and outwardly friendly time, but inside I was so upset and currently I don't know how I feel about my friendship with my oldest mate anymore (40+ years).

I have not written out here the ins and outs of the conversation itself as it would take it too much space. But I am so sad and disappointed that a mature and otherwise very sensible and aware woman can be so dismissive about the trans debate. She is also an avid reader and writer and claimed to be unaware (or did not care) about all the abuse aimed at JK Rowling and other prominent women. She had walked off before I could get around to mentioning Kathleen Stock, Maya Forstater, etc etc.

Both our partners responded differently to the debate as it played out. My friend's husband kept disappearing into the kitchen as he clearly did not want to get involved. Mine did back me as he understands the trans issues. Afterwards I asked him what he thought about the outcome. His view was that I had a better argument as I presented several facts and references, but she lost (and could not refute points) which is why she resorted to a cheap jibe about my getting information from the internet and then walking off in a huff.

This whole trans debate can be really difficult to handle, yet I feel it is wrong to avoid airing the issues in company, for the sake of a quiet life and not risking falling out with friends. But I have come to the conclusion that there are many women who wish to deny or ignore the issues that are out there - and these women would describe themselves as modern, intelligent, self-aware and feminists. I feel at a total loss and very sad.

That’s what gets me most about the issue too, with one of my friends. It’s not that we disagree, friendships can certainly survive that. It’s that she seems so willing to utterly forget who I am, and have been for the thirty years of our friendship to recast me as some knuckle dragging alt-right bigot who revels in hatred for a whole group over this topic. That’s what hurts. She knows I’m not like that. She KNOWS. But the ideology can’t accommodate that, so I have to be re-written.

I also struggle to reconcile the angry, sanctimonious finger wagger she has become over this with the warm, loving woman that I’ve known all this time. It’s a headfuck.

we Do Not Speak Of It. It has damaged the friendship, perhaps beyond repair.

Thanks for all your replies - all much appreciated and have given me a lot to think about.

Sorry but I think you were silly to pursue this debate on what was meant (I assume) to be a fun relaxed get together

If I went to meet an old friend who tried to lecture me about a political topic, followed me around and tried to convince me I was wrong, I'd not rate that as a fun evening

You may have been right in your views, but wrong in the time/place/person to present them

You won the argument but lost a friend

What does that achieve really, and how does it help women's rights

Sorry but I think you were silly here and should apologise

Old friendships are precious

I am having problems with a very old and dear friend regarding this. She is firmly convinced that JKR is a bigot and TWAW, and that GC are old fashioned fuddy-duddies. But she can’t tell me why JKR is a bigot, interestingly enough.

i have another friend who has a trans sibling and she brought the subject up, she knows what genuinely gender dysphoric people go through and agrees with me that children should not be encouraged to transition and this ideology should not be pushed in schools. There are ways to be understanding and supportive of dysphoric people without throwing women’s rights and spaces out of the window.

OP said it ‘came up in conversation’ Not that OP started the conversation.

Yes but you don't have to relentlessly pursue a conversation topic just because it came up

I find the conversations fascinating because usually they are well educated women who cannot live past the ‘be kind’ mode. The ‘Whatabout’ those poor men who genuinely think they are women and were born in the wrong body.

The partitioning that then happens somewhere in their brains around this issue is remarkable. Because there is nothing else that they can come up with.

The posts comparing it to a religious belief are spot on. And we have seen this time and time again on this board. Posters who are fully supportive of gender being prioritised over sex in all instances simply rely on fallacies and disconnected thinking in their posts. Thankfully only a few rely on posting clearly emotionally manipulative posts and expect others to be convinced.

Exactly. The way the ops worded things is like they’ve launched into a full scale old school type debate about it all - quoting sources and naming people who support their views etc. Way, way too much for a social gathering with someone who is supposed to be a close friend. It’s hard when you feel passionate about something but far better to just nod and smile and say “well we will have to agree to disagree, do you fancy another chocolate?” Or whatever. Or just have to accept your views are so different and you feel so strongly about it all that you can’t be friends anymore.

It is possible to be friends and disagree. I am not sure that when you are at another person's home for a social event with partners it is the time to be pleased to be formulating the best arguments quoting sources etc unless the point of the evening was a debating event. I would've been wanting a nice relaxed time as a host not surprised her husband kept dipping out. Is this someone you generally love and want to be around. It doesn't sound like it, otherwise why humiliate her in her own home. The subject is a red herring. ( and I am someone who doesn't agree TWAW in case this is queried)

This point really intrigues me. Most of my friends are GC, but I have a couple of friends who veer towards liberal or non-existent understanding of feminism. They immediately prickle if this subject comes up. They know me really well and this is the only topic that has this effect!
(Brexit is another apparently).
I think that if the mantra of TWAW has been accepted, then any kind of pushback on that, however reasonable, seems to generate real fury. Someone upthead mentioned cognitive dissonance and I think that has a lot to do with it.
Sometimes I wonder if it's the first time a certain view has been challenged that makes for a hard conversation. But remember it is a conversation, not an opportunity to show you're right, it's an exchange of views. Personally, if it starts getting heated, I would probably change the subject with a friend. Or go back to basics, why do we have some facilities that are for women only? But you do have to be able to agree to disagree.

When I read the op the thing that stood out the most, for me anyway, is I felt you are more upset that your friend doesn't agree with you more than the topic itself

If we had to agree totally with pit friends on everything then I doubt any of would have many?

Maybe think why was it more important you felt 'right'?

This.

Honestly, these arguments are going to look ridiculous in ten years time. Seriously, life is short.

I think I was more upset that my friend suggested I was a numpty that read "things on the internet" and took them as gospel without doing any research or fact-finding of my own.

I think we were both upset that the other implied each of us was stupid.

Blimey. So a friendship of 40 years is built on social chit chat and nothing else?

Because if a discussion cannot happen over a table with the OP, their friend and their partners, when can it happen? And now that OP knows it is a topic where their friend obviously is reliant on being kind and not actually engaged critical thinking, they can avoid the topic from now on.

But perhaps it is a cultural difference as I was not born in the UK and the country I was born seems to have more direct conversations, and friendships survive them and actually are stronger because of it.

Because not every discussion is about ‘converting’ others. Most discussions I have are about exploring people’s thoughts. On this issue and on many others. Bringing up ‘evidence’ can simply be mentioning a court case or a study. It doesn’t have to be a lecture.

And if they have never discussed it before, how would OP know what that friend’s opinion was?

I have a lovely and dear friend. She is passionate about lots of issues, many I agree with. She is very bright . But I still think she is ill-informed sometimes and try to steer of various subjects which even though close to my heart I have a different nuanced view about. Hope you get your friendship back on track .

Another thought, from the other side of this - a few people have suggested you regard your friend as having subscribed to a religion or ‘drunk the cool aid’ and that she is now impervious to all reason and logic. Perhaps the better attitude is to assume you have both considered the issue sensibly as reasonable people but reached different conclusions. Just as you wouldn’t wish your friend to conclude you have suddenly transformed into a hateful bigot, I think you would be well advised to give your friend the benefit of the doubt - something this whole debate would benefit from, in my view.

That's a fair comment on the surface except...can you enlighten me on what the reasonable position is from the other side? I've looked, researched, read papers and I can't see a position where the medicalisation of children, many of whom will likely grow up gay if left alone, looks reasonable? I've yet to read an argument where compromising the safety of vulnerable women in the prison estate is a risk worth taking for the benefit of men who claim a woman identity (often after found guilty, funny that)? I've not heard a respectful or trauma-informed discourse on why female victims of domestic violence should be forced to get over their instinctive responses to male bodies in their safe spaces? I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how a therapist can be both affirming and exploratory at the same time. I'm all ears.

I also have a very dear and longstanding friend. A while ago when I first became aware of this madness and couldn't believe what was happening I spoke about it to her. It became apparent she was of the 'be kind' persuasion. This was before this stuff was in the MSM. She has an adult child who moves in very woke circles and who I suspect, although I don't know, believes TWAW.

It got a bit tense. She was a bit snippy with me and I also felt a bit angry. I felt she was implying I was getting swept along with stuff 'on the internet' and she knew better than me.
She is a very intelligent and thoughtful women. We have been through a lot together. I certainly don't want to lose our friendship and I don't think she does either. So we don't talk about this stuff when it's just the two of us. It occasionally comes up in our friendship group now that it's more mainstream. I won't be silent or fearful because frankly that's how we got in this mess so I'll say something very brief and mildly challenging of the ideology (thank you MN for giving me the words!) but I'm very careful not to get on a soapbox. I've taken the view it's not my job to 'convert' her or our other friends. I put my energy into writing to my MP, supporting legal crowdfunders, signing petitions, challenging stuff at work.
Our friendship has survived and, if anything, feels stronger and deeper for it.
I hope it works out OP.

I've taken the view it's not my job to 'convert' her or our other friends. I put my energy into writing to my MP, supporting legal crowdfunders, signing petitions, challenging stuff at work. Our friendship has survived and, if anything, feels stronger and deeper for it.

Yes. This. Those who take discussions to be about 'converting' seem to be those who don't seem to have anything other than emotionally manipulative support for their opinions on this. That is why it so often said to be similar to 'religion'.

Because their is no science behind it to provide factual support.

But either way, it doesn't bother me that much if friends don't agree with me about this issue. I too put my energy into supporting the changes to strengthen the protections for women and children.

The thing is that you can't just bring this topic up outright in the way that you might about other subjects. The narrative has been very, very carefully constructed to equate questioning that transwomen are women in every way, with homophobia and bigotry. So starting the topic fully on the side of the terrible bigots makes you automatically a terrible bigot.

I think most people who were 'be kind' types didn't have one watershed discussion that turned us terf. It was a slow drip, drip of small things that we knew didn't add up before we eventually accepted that our previous position was wrong. If someone had come at me from a position of fully formed terf, back then, I would have reacted badly because that's not how people change position. You need to start in gently and ask questions as if you are still questioning because that allows other people to possibly voice their own questions. It creates an environment where it's possible for the other person to voice doubts they may have and talk them through in a way in which they may never have done aloud before. It also allows you to recognise when the other person does not have doubts so you can back off.

Wanderingowl seems like a very wise owl to me

Agreed! 🦉🕉️

I think most people who were 'be kind' types didn't have one watershed discussion that turned us terf. It was a slow drip, drip of small things that we knew didn't add up before we eventually accepted that our previous position was wrong.

Yes. But in a few cases I think a triggering event smashes a boulder into the “be kind” narrative. If you are directly affected I think the mountain summit can be reached much more directly!

The thing is this "carefully constructing" discussions and walking on eggshells is not how most friendships function.

Even when you are talking about religion or politics!

The fact that people are being told they need to do that, or can't talk about it at all, or their friends accuse them of being bigots, is a sign that this topic is different and weird. That people are not behaving in a normal way on this.