Fell out with oldest friend over trans issues discussion

[Babyloniaroma]

I'm so upset. Was at her place at the weekend and the subject came up in conversation. She refused to believe that traditional single-sex women only spaces are under threat from trans activists and all the rest of it. At the height of the conversation, she told me "not to believe everything you see on the internet". I explained to her that "the internet" also included on-line access to a variety of newspapers etc. At this point she walked off, saying I was insulting her intelligence. I felt she had insulted my intelligence by implying that I took information at face value from on-line sources (eg facebook?) and applied no critical thinking of my own.

I did follow her through to the kitchen and said I was not implying that she was stupid etc.

We got through the rest of the evening with our partners and had a civilised and outwardly friendly time, but inside I was so upset and currently I don't know how I feel about my friendship with my oldest mate anymore (40+ years).

I have not written out here the ins and outs of the conversation itself as it would take it too much space. But I am so sad and disappointed that a mature and otherwise very sensible and aware woman can be so dismissive about the trans debate. She is also an avid reader and writer and claimed to be unaware (or did not care) about all the abuse aimed at JK Rowling and other prominent women. She had walked off before I could get around to mentioning Kathleen Stock, Maya Forstater, etc etc.

Both our partners responded differently to the debate as it played out. My friend's husband kept disappearing into the kitchen as he clearly did not want to get involved. Mine did back me as he understands the trans issues. Afterwards I asked him what he thought about the outcome. His view was that I had a better argument as I presented several facts and references, but she lost (and could not refute points) which is why she resorted to a cheap jibe about my getting information from the internet and then walking off in a huff.

This whole trans debate can be really difficult to handle, yet I feel it is wrong to avoid airing the issues in company, for the sake of a quiet life and not risking falling out with friends. But I have come to the conclusion that there are many women who wish to deny or ignore the issues that are out there - and these women would describe themselves as modern, intelligent, self-aware and feminists. I feel at a total loss and very sad.

The first mastectomy in a teenager I'd known from babyhood did it for me. (Yes, she was a teen. Her family paid privately, to avoid the terrible horrible prospect of waiting for the NHS and being gatekept.)

DH took longer, but by the time it had hit our fourth or fifth friend's family he was no longer nodding along in mildly amused agreement with our teens at my 'old-fashioned obsession' with all of this.

That's a fair comment on the surface except...can you enlighten me on what the reasonable position is from the other side? I've looked, researched, read papers and I can't see a position where the medicalisation of children, many of whom will likely grow up gay if left alone, looks reasonable? I've yet to read an argument where compromising the safety of vulnerable women in the prison estate is a risk worth taking for the benefit of men who claim a woman identity (often after found guilty, funny that)? I've not heard a respectful or trauma-informed discourse on why female victims of domestic violence should be forced to get over their instinctive responses to male bodies in their safe spaces? I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how a therapist can be both affirming and exploratory at the same time. I'm all ears.

This.

She is firmly convinced that JKR is a bigot and TWAW, and that GC are old fashioned fuddy-duddies. But she can’t tell me why JKR is a bigot, interestingly enough.

None of them can.

Here is my position: there are clearly people who feel uncomfortable, to a greater or lesser degree, with the social category - ‘man’ or ‘woman’ - which was imposed on them because of the physical characteristics they have as a result of (in the vast majority of cases) having either XX or XY chromosomes. In many cases they also feel discomfort or distress with some or all of those physical characteristics.

Many of those people find that they are better able to live happy, or at least happier, lives if they change various things about themselves, connected with the social expectations attaching to gender categories - eg their name, pronouns, dress and other aspects of appearance - and in many cases by also altering some of their physical characteristics through hormones and surgery.

I don’t pretend to understand why people feel that way, or how it would feel. But I know that we live in a society and culture that has only very recently (and incompletely) started to accept that being born with a particular (male or female) biology doesn’t have to dictate how you should act, what you should want, who you’re attracted to, and how you should look and sound.

So if it makes it easier for some people to live their lives, and negotiate the gendered norms and expectations placed on them by society, if I call them by a different name and pronouns, and accept that they are - at least for some purposes - a man (in the case of a trans man) or a woman (in the case of a trans woman), then I am more than happy to do that.

That is my starting point. I accept that there are a number of very difficult questions of medical ethics and social policy that have to be grappled with, such as those you mention. Each of those issues involves different factors and risks that have to be carefully considered and weighed by those best qualified to do so.

"Many women, I think, resist feminism because it is an agony to be fully conscious of the brutal misogyny which permeates culture, society, and all personal relationships" Andrea Dworkin

So if it makes it easier for some people to live their lives, and negotiate the gendered norms and expectations placed on them by society, if I call them by a different name and pronouns, and accept that they are - at least for some purposes - a man (in the case of a trans man) or a woman (in the case of a trans woman), then I am more than happy to do that.

I don't think you'll find many women who weren't there are a few years ago. Unfortunately, mere toleration is not acceptable.

I guess you could try rewriting the conversation in your head but replace trans with gay, or any other minority group. It probably sounds like you are a terrible bigot if you do that, and that is how it seems to your friend, or in fact anybody who stands for trans rights, which despite what you see online is actually the majority of the population, including the majority of women. I expect your friends husband kept disappearing into the kitchen to stop himself being rude to you. They are probably assessing if they want to see you anymore, maybe discussing how sad it is that so many people have become radicalised over this fabricated threat when in reality they are completely unaffected by it. I hope one day you will be able to see that, but as time goes on I am starting to think that there is no way back for those who have disappeared down this rabbit hole. To acknowledge that you destroyed friendships, and encouraged hatred towards a minority group who now suffer even more discrimination and violence as a result of the GC movement that you support would be just too hard, plus letting go of the online community and continuous validation that is so seductive, especially on here. I hope you get away from it one day and repair your lost friendship.

I guess you could try rewriting the conversation in your head but replace trans with gay, or any other minority group.

You're coming from an absolutely ridiculous starting presumption here.

We don't want transwomen in women's spaces because they're male

Replace that with what?
We don't want gay women in women's spaces because they're male? Or we don't want Asian women in our spaces because they're male? No one thinks that 😂😂
Or we don't want gay men in women's spaces because they're male. Correct!
We don't want Asian men in women's spaces either. Or tall men or disabled men. They are all as male as trans women.

How about you rewrite the conversation and talk sense.

Do you think disabled men should have access to women's spaces? because surely they're harmless and pose no threat.

What a load of old bollocks.

I'm sorry you've had this issue OP. Unfortunately I cannot relate as everyone I know understands that humans can not change sex, don't give a shit how someone presents and do not agree with the erosion of female sex based provision. Like the majority of the population (contrary to what this PP has posted.

In response to Merrythoughts7

...and encouraged hatred towards a minority group who now suffer even more discrimination and violence as a result of the GC movement

It's hyperbole like this that encourages rape threats and threats of violence towards women, forces women to be silent and puts women at risk of harm.
Jog on love.

Recent home office data shows that hate crimes against transgender people have risen by 56% in the last year, the biggest rise among all groups. (Source BBC)

Recent home office data shows that hate crimes against transgender people have risen by 56% in the last year, the biggest rise among all groups. (Source BBC)

When you include "misgendering" and "looked at me wrong" as a hate crime.....

No one is sending rape and death threats to trans people.

If anyone is, it'll be blokes not feminists

Neither of those things qualify as hate crimes, but yeah, we're the ones who need to do proper research.
You have misgendered trans women on this thread multiple times and have responded to official data with made up nonsense all the while accusing me of hyperbole. You don't seem able to defend your opinions in an intelligent evidence based way, or without resorting to outright discriminatory remarks so not going to engage with you any more. Bye.

We don't want transwomen in women's spaces because they're male

That's the essence of the whole issue as far as women are concerned.

And I refuse to use qualifiers such as 'natal'. Women should be sufficient.

"Women are women, and transwomen are transwomen" (@Hadley Freeman)

I guess you could try rewriting the conversation in your head but replace trans with gay, or any other minority group
Why? It would only make sense to do this if you subscribed to the ridiculous idea that there is a hierarchy of minority groups with those most in the minority being a sacred category that are more important than anyone else. 🤔

I mean they are literally having a laugh here aren't they? No further evidence of the total ignorance and privilege of these people needed.

Excellent. Now we’ve both presented the evidence and people can make up their own minds can’t they

I’ve progressed with a family member from “why can’t you just be kind?” to “yes, but there aren’t very many male rapists in women’s prisons.”

The other day we had a conversation about job insecurity amongst her age group & the difference in employment protections in U.K. & U.S. companies.

i mentioned the name of Maya Forstater & there was a slight flinch.