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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sunday Times article by Jan Morris’s daughter

183 replies

BalooLikeYou · 10/12/2022 19:04

archive.ph/bupdZ

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 11/12/2022 10:40

I think it's safe to say that Suki now has a whole band of women, at least, behind her who see.

Yes. I'm angry on her behalf. I hope she is able to move on, and I hope sharing her story helps.

SerenityLoveLamb · 11/12/2022 10:45

ValerieDoonican · 10/12/2022 22:25

"What did she want to be? I believe she wanted to be someone totally different from anyone else, a woman who was the centre of attention because of her difference. She was no ordinary woman, as she believed the rest of us were. She was always talked about, always put on some pedestal. Her ego was massive, with people constantly rubbing it. She was a woman who enjoyed being in a man’s world because she stood out." (my underlining)

ouch!

This really resonated with me.

This makes so much sense of all the Dylan Mulvanys, the TW EDI speakers who get to be the guests on IWD, the Channel 4 penis pianist and their revolting song, the Lia Thomases, Emily Bridges, the India Willoughby's ...

It's all about being a woman but not like those muted, meek and actual women....

Slothtoes · 11/12/2022 11:07

Suki Morys is a very talented writer. She conveyed painful emotional truth with beautiful clarity and insight in that piece. I hope she and her family can recover from the personal impact of such an awful, abusive situation. Flowers

daringdoris · 11/12/2022 11:39

I'm trying to remember what I know about his sons- I think they all initially moved to other countries, Twm lived in Brittany for a long time, another is in Canada or America, not sure about the third. Twm then moved back to Wales and 'kept the flame' (as the Telegraph article above puts it).
I've come across Twm a couple of times and have wondered what his relationship with Jan was like. I did look for Welsh language articles when JM died, and came across this one.
from BBC Cymru (it's in Welsh)
It was commissioned to be written about Jan Morris on International Wonen's Day, and Twm begins by writing this:

As I am her son, I was asked to write a piece about Jan Morris, the world famous author, for International Women's Day. Her contribution to the world since 1972 has been enormous, it's true, and there is no bigger fan than me!

But there is plenty of talk about Jan Morris, the world famous author at the moment, and the second volume of her reflection diary Thinking Again has just come off the press. And that or any of the pile of books she has written during her long career would hardly have happened if it wasn't for her partner, my mother, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth also deserves attention on Women's Day.

Ch3wylemon · 11/12/2022 11:39

Oh look. Another abusive, narcissistic male who thinks everyone around them are extras in the film about their life.

Great post RedToothBrush.

daringdoris · 11/12/2022 11:40

Forgot to say that I agree that it's a brilliantly written article. Thank you for the share token.

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 11/12/2022 11:48

Just popping this down, not to take the shine off Suki’s excellent writing and frank refusal to disappear inside Jan’s self written narrative, but to join some dots al la legendary MNetter R0wantrees…

Katy Tur, who is an American journalist/news anchor published her own childhood memoir earlier this year.

Katy’s parents were pioneers in helicopter journalism, her mother, Marika Gerrard and her father Bob Tur, documented fast paced and dangerous situations, Bob often hanging off the back of a helicopter.

Bob seems to me to be similar sort of chap to the Morris who documented the conquering of Everest.
Super macho men, but one step removed from the main adventurers, observers, but heroic, active, observers rather than passive ones. The documenting medium is different due, in part, to the decades in which these pioneering journalists made their names, but the parallels are striking.

Bob changed his name to Zoey in 2013.

theguardian.com/books/2022/jun/11/rough-draft-review-katy-turs-fascinating-and-flawed-story-of-news-and-family

look at the above article and see how far down you have to go before you get to the transition (spoiler: a long way!)

here’s a couple of extracts:

But according to Katy Tur, her father was unable to unlearn the worst lessons of his childhood and repeated the pattern of violence in his adult life, striking his wife, whipping Katy and her brother, punching holes in the living room walls.

Her father told her he had “decided to become a woman. It’s why I’ve been so angry.”

After the transition, Zoey Tur attacked Katy Tur for allegedly being transphobic. She insists she has always been supportive of such a courageous decision. But what she could not forgive was Zoey’s refusal to discuss or acknowledge the violence Bob Tur inflicted on his family, because the man who committed it no longer existed.

Tur writes: “It felt like my dad was playing a get-out-of-gender-free card I didn’t know existed … I was dumbfounded by the idea that a person could change their gender … and think that in the process the deeds of the past would no longer be relevant.”

It was “like a bank robber pleading not guilty on account of gender misalignment. But that’s how my father saw it.”

“Bob Tur is dead,” Zoey Tur said.

But, Katy Tur replied, “The stuff Bob Tur did isn’t dead.”

Katy is Tur’s only daughter, she has one brother.

Whilst googling the links for this I was horrified to see that, according to Google, Marika Gerrard’s main achievement is being ‘Zoey Tur’s ex wife’, rather than oooh, I dunno, her 17 years working for the LA Times and then cofounding a news channel, having sound recordist and production credits on three documentary films or being a singer songwriter with a Masters in Philosophy… plus Gerrard was married to Bob, not Zoey (they split TEN YEARS PRIOR to Bob’s ‘coming out’!)

Even ‘Katy Tur’s mother’ would surely be an improvement?

here’s short interview with Bob/Zoey about transition from 9 years ago (using both names as the article does):

www.kpcc.org/show/offramp/2013-09-04/zoey-101-chopper-pilot-bob-tur-becomes-zoey-tur-part-2

Short clip of Katy here:

Excellent review of/ reflection on Katy’s memoir Rough Draft on the Children of Transitioners website here:

childrenoftransitioners.org/2022/08/14/the-wrong-side-of-his-story-reviewing-rough-draft-by-katy-tur/

I’d bloody love a long podcast series with all these three women, Suki, Katy and the author of the CoT blog.
All of them are so interesting and insightful and have grown into fascinating, intellectually accomplished women despite having incredibly difficult fathers who tried to dull their brilliance (due to what I can only assume is envy and attempts to control due to their biological, immutable, female sex).

(apologies for typos and bad formatting, Mumsnet’s current tendency to reload and jettison a long post while I’m still writing it is driving me doolally and it’s not worth the risk of losing the whole thing for the sake of a few typos/autocucumbers)

(Also, proper love that Suki is ‘Morys’ not ‘Morris’)

Sunday Times article by Jan Morris’s daughter
Sunday Times article by Jan Morris’s daughter
AlwaysTawnyOwl · 11/12/2022 11:53

What a horrible individual. What sort of parent cuts their daughter out of the Will - when she was bringing up 4 children on her own - and then gets her to regularly review the Will to rub her nose in it? Cruel.

RoyalCorgi · 11/12/2022 12:33

daringdoris · 11/12/2022 11:39

I'm trying to remember what I know about his sons- I think they all initially moved to other countries, Twm lived in Brittany for a long time, another is in Canada or America, not sure about the third. Twm then moved back to Wales and 'kept the flame' (as the Telegraph article above puts it).
I've come across Twm a couple of times and have wondered what his relationship with Jan was like. I did look for Welsh language articles when JM died, and came across this one.
from BBC Cymru (it's in Welsh)
It was commissioned to be written about Jan Morris on International Wonen's Day, and Twm begins by writing this:

As I am her son, I was asked to write a piece about Jan Morris, the world famous author, for International Women's Day. Her contribution to the world since 1972 has been enormous, it's true, and there is no bigger fan than me!

But there is plenty of talk about Jan Morris, the world famous author at the moment, and the second volume of her reflection diary Thinking Again has just come off the press. And that or any of the pile of books she has written during her long career would hardly have happened if it wasn't for her partner, my mother, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth also deserves attention on Women's Day.

Very interesting to see Twm choose to write about his mother.

Reading Suki's article, I did wonder if Twm was perhaps Jan's favoured child - part of Jan's technique of doing Suki down was to compare her unfavourably with Twm (Sukie says "my brother" but I'm guessing it was Twm). And I've noticed there have been other articles about JM where Twm gets a positive mention. The other children rarely get talked about.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/12/2022 13:00

Thank you for that parallel, @DaughterOfPsychiatrist. Troubling and fascinating.

Pemba · 11/12/2022 13:12

I wonder if the brothers did the decent thing and agreed to a variation of the will after Jan died, giving Suki her fair share? But I'm guessing not, or she would have mentioned it? Hmm.

What an awful person Jan turned out to be. I used to think until recently that Jan Morris was one of the exceptions but I guess not... Poor Elizabeth and poor children.

nauticant · 11/12/2022 13:15

For anyone wanting to read the whole of Nora Ephron's 1974 review of Conundrum it's here and I'd recommend it, because what it describes is ludircrous:

books.google.co.uk/books?id=uGqKBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=%22i+suppose+everyone+knows+by+now,+james+morris+was+four+years%22&source=bl&ots=al8XjKTJ5Q&sig=ACfU3U2zhsQ1kriZLgL6ddrpKO9VYN9HGA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjp59zfzfH7AhV0m1wKHYsBCVUQ6AF6BAgJEAM#v=onepage&q=%22i%20suppose%20everyone%20knows%20by%20now%2C%20james%20morris%20was%20four%20years%22&f=false

Ephron was literally decades ahead of most of us.

(This should provide the full review but books.google can be quite temperamental and up to mischief behind the scenes, sometimes providing the full set of pages and sometimes withholding them.)

Pemba · 11/12/2022 13:19

I remember an interview with Jan M a few years ago. It was quite touching I thought at the time , I remember it featured a headstone or plaque that Jan and Elizabeth had prepared for both their deaths with an inscription beginning 'two friends'... I do wonder what Elizabeth really thinks about it all.

Datun · 11/12/2022 13:19

It's a horrible insight into how transgender ideology can be exploited to the extent it is. That a man's cruelty to his family can be shrouded from the public beneath the costume of acquired 'womanhood.'

And making his daughter go from school to school is horrific if there was no reason for it. It shows that it's so utterly personal.

Jan Morris fits the criteria for autogynophile completely.

The sooner this behaviour is attributed to something other than an ideology, the better.

ChampagneCommunist · 11/12/2022 13:22

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 11/12/2022 09:26

I remember a thread on here which asked when people first doubted the ‘TW be kind’ narrative. I knew one of Morris’ sons at University, and I posted my experience (lived experience?) of his reaction to the publishing of Conundrum. Suffice it to say that it was not positive.

My post was deleted. Apparently it wasn’t acceptable, although it was neither rude nor untruthful. Oh well, it seems like history has caught up.

PS I had a bit in it about another famous person called after a month of Year, whom I knew personally. Maybe that didn’t fit the narrative.

Maybe it would be allowed now? I would be very interested in what you have to say

RoyalCorgi · 11/12/2022 13:27

There's a November 2021 tweet here from Suki Morys referring to a BBC programme about JM. She says:

"I want to correct something said about me in the programme. I didn't find Jan's transition extremely difficult at all.I don't care what gender anyone wants to be. It's the person that's important.The way Jan treated us caused the rift. The unkindness."

It's clear from the article, though, that the transition was extremely difficult for her, so I think she's not being entirely straight there, perhaps not even with herself.

twitter.com/swiftness2009/status/1459902599465996291

FoxtrotOscarFoxtrotOscar · 11/12/2022 13:31

I read the ST article not knowing anything about Jan Morris.
So Jan transitioned from a man into a woman-hating woman.

Love Suki's writing style. The pain and confusion are evident.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/12/2022 13:38

nauticant · 11/12/2022 13:15

For anyone wanting to read the whole of Nora Ephron's 1974 review of Conundrum it's here and I'd recommend it, because what it describes is ludircrous:

books.google.co.uk/books?id=uGqKBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=%22i+suppose+everyone+knows+by+now,+james+morris+was+four+years%22&source=bl&ots=al8XjKTJ5Q&sig=ACfU3U2zhsQ1kriZLgL6ddrpKO9VYN9HGA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjp59zfzfH7AhV0m1wKHYsBCVUQ6AF6BAgJEAM#v=onepage&q=%22i%20suppose%20everyone%20knows%20by%20now%2C%20james%20morris%20was%20four%20years%22&f=false

Ephron was literally decades ahead of most of us.

(This should provide the full review but books.google can be quite temperamental and up to mischief behind the scenes, sometimes providing the full set of pages and sometimes withholding them.)

Thanks for that, @nauticant. I got most of it but the last few lines were cut off, copyright reasons I suppose. If Nora Ephron were still alive, she'd be absolutely vilified for her clear-sighted, entirely justifiable views.

daringdoris · 11/12/2022 13:39

There's this tweet reply in Welsh from Nov last year:
Diolch.
Mae fy mam yn hapus.. Dyna beth sy'n
pwysig. Mae gen i Henry a Mark .
Gobeithio cyn bo hir dwi'n gallu siarad allan.
Diolch eto, mae'n dda i gwybod mae rhai pobl yn
deall. Mae'n tipyn bach yn unig weithiau.

Which means - Thanks. My mother is happy. That's what's important. I have Henry and Mark. Hopefully I'll be able to speak out before long. Thanks again, it's good to know that some people understand. It's a little bit lonely sometimes.

And this one from today I think:

daringdoris · 11/12/2022 13:40

oops!
My mother gives me unconditional love . she brought me up to accept other
people no matter what . SHE is
the epitome of kindness,There whenever I needed her , she has been a wonderful mother and I won’t say more She has dementia and so cannot have her voice right now
^^

daringdoris · 11/12/2022 13:46

So doesn't look like Suki and Twm get along RoyalCorgi

Twm and Jan used to appear together at cultural events in Wales, it probably suited them both. I've just been watching a recording of one. It's interesting to hear how they both answer questions in a way which dodges any real reference to family relationships, even when it would seem to be an obvious part of the answer.

I can share the link if anyone would find it interesting.

OldCrone · 11/12/2022 14:05

nauticant · 11/12/2022 13:15

For anyone wanting to read the whole of Nora Ephron's 1974 review of Conundrum it's here and I'd recommend it, because what it describes is ludircrous:

books.google.co.uk/books?id=uGqKBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=%22i+suppose+everyone+knows+by+now,+james+morris+was+four+years%22&source=bl&ots=al8XjKTJ5Q&sig=ACfU3U2zhsQ1kriZLgL6ddrpKO9VYN9HGA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjp59zfzfH7AhV0m1wKHYsBCVUQ6AF6BAgJEAM#v=onepage&q=%22i%20suppose%20everyone%20knows%20by%20now%2C%20james%20morris%20was%20four%20years%22&f=false

Ephron was literally decades ahead of most of us.

(This should provide the full review but books.google can be quite temperamental and up to mischief behind the scenes, sometimes providing the full set of pages and sometimes withholding them.)

There's another review of Conundrum here, by Rebecca West.

www.nytimes.com/1974/04/14/archives/conundrum-by-jan-morris-a-helen-and-kurt-wolff-book-174-pp-new-york.html

"She sounds not like a woman, but like a man's idea of a women, and curiously enough, the idea of a man not nearly so intelligent as James Morris used to be."

It's worth reading the whole review.

Bideshi · 11/12/2022 14:40

I read the article and was very saddened by it. I idolised Jan Morris as a writer and still think she was a travel write par excellence. I also had some correspondence with her in the1980s/90s about the unkindness and narrow-mindedness of Thatcherism and the joy of living in places that are on the periphery. She seemed sensitive, liberal in outlook and absolutely on the same wavelength. I also read Conundrum when it first came out and found it moving. I would be more critical now, but you know: autre temps and all that....

It just goes to show how an clever use of veils allows an adroit shape-shifter to fool a lot of the people for most of the time. Good on Suki blowing it all apart.. Those are particularly nasty mind-games. Still gutted though.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/12/2022 14:44

This Radio 4 Archive on 4 programme from November last year is not completely adulatory. There are clips from Twm but none of the other family members. In response to it Suki tweeted I want to correct something said about me in the programme. I didn't find Jan's transition extremely difficult at all.I don't care what gender anyone wants to be. It's the person that's important.The way Jan treated us caused the rift. The unkindness.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0011jxq

ErrolTheDragon · 11/12/2022 14:50

I suppose one always has to be wary of an unreliable narrator in an autobiographical work, but knowing that section about the child's death is a mere romantic fiction makes me disinclined to ever read that book.

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