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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sunday Times article by Jan Morris’s daughter

183 replies

BalooLikeYou · 10/12/2022 19:04

archive.ph/bupdZ

OP posts:
ValerieDoonican · 11/12/2022 14:53

@OldCrone @DaughterOfPsychiatrist aaaugh what is it with trans women and their tits ??😣(please don't answer that 🙁)

XanaduKira · 11/12/2022 15:16

HermioneWeasley · 10/12/2022 19:42

I am also shocked to hear that a male who thinks womanhood is a costume, turns out to be sexist. And a narcissist.

I’m glad Suki has had a chance to have her say

Me too.

PermanentTemporary · 11/12/2022 17:06

So taking Suki's words exactly as she gives them, the transition was not difficult in itself and she would never say that people shouldn't transition. She describes the word 'daddy' being lost but presumably means that was not a particularly hard process.

What she would therefore seem to be saying is that the transition was irrelevant: JM was sexist, detached and quite cruel to women before the transition and the same afterwards. And therefore I suppose she would say that by focusing on the transition we are focusing on the wrong thing. What mattered to her was the sexism and the cruelty, to her and to her mother.

Fair enough that this is her view. I still find it extremely hard that this person believed from the age of 4 that they were a woman, while treating the women in their life as if they didn't really count as human beings.

ErrolTheDragon · 11/12/2022 17:16

Yes, that's fair enough - but I think it's pretty clear that Sukiyaki Morys does not believe that 'transition' made her father a woman in any real way. Maybe that's why the 'transition' was easy for her - different clothes, a few different words, same shitty parent.

ArabellaScott · 11/12/2022 17:46

I still find it extremely hard that this person believed from the age of 4 that they were a woman, while treating the women in their life as if they didn't really count as human beings.

Almost like it's a maladaptive psychological response to some early trauma.

WinterLobelia · 11/12/2022 18:25

daringdoris · 11/12/2022 11:39

I'm trying to remember what I know about his sons- I think they all initially moved to other countries, Twm lived in Brittany for a long time, another is in Canada or America, not sure about the third. Twm then moved back to Wales and 'kept the flame' (as the Telegraph article above puts it).
I've come across Twm a couple of times and have wondered what his relationship with Jan was like. I did look for Welsh language articles when JM died, and came across this one.
from BBC Cymru (it's in Welsh)
It was commissioned to be written about Jan Morris on International Wonen's Day, and Twm begins by writing this:

As I am her son, I was asked to write a piece about Jan Morris, the world famous author, for International Women's Day. Her contribution to the world since 1972 has been enormous, it's true, and there is no bigger fan than me!

But there is plenty of talk about Jan Morris, the world famous author at the moment, and the second volume of her reflection diary Thinking Again has just come off the press. And that or any of the pile of books she has written during her long career would hardly have happened if it wasn't for her partner, my mother, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth also deserves attention on Women's Day.

Thank you for this post and for posting a quote that would otherwise be inaccessible to me as I do not speak Welsh.

I have never heard of JM before. I am not from the UK originally so this may be why. I have now read up a bit and echo that Suki Morys is a gifted, gifted writer.

Pallisers · 11/12/2022 18:34

@DaughterOfPsychiatrist I was about to post about Katy Tur's book. I heard an interview with her on NPR and it was very powerful. Her parents used to send feed to a studio from the helicopter and one of the audio engineers made a tape of the abuse her father used to give her mother - while flying - and sent it anonymously to her mother. He was an incredibly violent and abusive man. At one point, after transition in a debate they said to Ben Shapiro"You cut that out now, or you'll go home in an ambulance"

RoyalCorgi · 11/12/2022 19:57

The Nora Ephron review is excellent. It feels amazingly fresh, in fact - but perhaps illustrates how often it happens in feminism that we have to keep relearning what previous generations of feminists had already worked out.

BridasShieldWall · 11/12/2022 20:49

I’ve seen the Ben Shapiro / Tur clip and they were part of a panel discussion. All the other guests / presenters seemed to think Shapiro ‘asked ‘ for it because he didn’t believe the Tur had changed sex and said so. Utterly cowardly that no one spoke out. Tur was sat next to Shapiro and put his hand round the back of Shapiro’s neck as he threatened him.

IwantToRetire · 11/12/2022 20:53

I read the article earlier today and was filled with anger and sorrow. And felt even worse that it seems this horrible parent is still causing her distress.

re. moving schools - without in any way saying JM wasn't a fit parent, in those times and that kind of family, it would be quite normal for the boys to be sent to bording school for the better education and girls expected to make do with whatever was local, because after all when they left school at 15/16 they would just go off and get married.

Suki's account of the transition and family life make it seem like there was no attempt to pretend it was about body dysmorphia, it seems little more that a publicity stunt to get more attention when books were published. I wonder if part of it was, as others have said, just to be someone special who would stand out.

What an unspeakable man. His treatment of his wife and his children, and the gross cruelty re the Will. Forget how much money was involved or control of books, but the public insult to his daughter.

And also really sad that his wife stood by him. Again at that time treament of women in marriages was like something out of the Victorian era. And then to remarry. Was she very religious. Why would she do that? It seems to be such a life of subservience. Although recently I heard on Radio 4 never having read it, Look Back in Anger, supposedly a brilliant book by a wonderful male writer, and all I thought is this moron is a ....... incel. And yet loads of very clever educated women dedicated their lives to him.

I did see him interviewed on TV and just thought it was very odd (I was quite young and didn't really understand) but later wondered why so many in the publishing profession were so accepting of his transition. But then if you looking a publishing and the media today not much has changed.

TinselAngel · 11/12/2022 21:40

And also really sad that his wife stood by him. Again at that time treament of women in marriages was like something out of the Victorian era. And then to remarry. Was she very religious. Why would she do that? It seems to be such a life of subservience.

Jesus. Really? Are we still at "why don't abused women leave?" This is pure victim blaming.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 11/12/2022 21:47

It's sad for her that she never escaped his orbit.

One of the children made a public comment that their mother felt they'd been married in the eyes of God, and that it was her duty to stay with him. I can see that this belief worked to JM's benefit. He seems to have ended up being a woman who had it all: marriage, children, career requiring large amounts of travel, accolades for professional achievements.

To quote that one who stripped naked on channel 4, 🎵 But what do you expect? He used to be a maan!🎵

IwantToRetire · 11/12/2022 21:57

A bit over the top tinselangel. I was asking a question because somewhere in the article it made some reference about being united under god or something.

So instead of jumping to conclusion perhaps you could answer the question?

RedToothBrush · 11/12/2022 22:00

IwantToRetire · 11/12/2022 21:57

A bit over the top tinselangel. I was asking a question because somewhere in the article it made some reference about being united under god or something.

So instead of jumping to conclusion perhaps you could answer the question?

I thought it was a fair answer tbh.

IwantToRetire · 11/12/2022 22:09

No it was silly knee jerk. I was asking more in the context of religion as most do not accept transitioning, and if as NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision was easily able to explain, she stayed married because of religion, how did she reconcile that.

I know we will never know, but I was trying to understand the logic for someone with faith facing contradictory tearchins. Obviously he was a very controlling husband and father. The article makes that clear.

Point scoring response dont move the discussion forward, and so far this thread has been very illuminating with many facets being discussed, some of which had never occured to me.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 11/12/2022 22:20

I wonder if the simplest answer is that like many men he felt entitled to totally upend his life, while keeping all the good things of his old life, and service humans came under the heading of "things".

I doubt he ever spent a minute trying to convince her that she was freed from her vows by his actions and that she was entitled to pursue self-fulfillment independently from him, do you?

RedToothBrush · 11/12/2022 22:30

IwantToRetire · 11/12/2022 22:09

No it was silly knee jerk. I was asking more in the context of religion as most do not accept transitioning, and if as NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision was easily able to explain, she stayed married because of religion, how did she reconcile that.

I know we will never know, but I was trying to understand the logic for someone with faith facing contradictory tearchins. Obviously he was a very controlling husband and father. The article makes that clear.

Point scoring response dont move the discussion forward, and so far this thread has been very illuminating with many facets being discussed, some of which had never occured to me.

But I agree with Tinsel.

I don't agree with you that its kneejerk.

Wife is a victim who has been conditioned to stay no matter what. The whole thing about being in the wrong body is a quasi-religious belief too. Designed to guilt women into serving men.

DerekFaker · 11/12/2022 22:32

Pallisers · 11/12/2022 18:34

@DaughterOfPsychiatrist I was about to post about Katy Tur's book. I heard an interview with her on NPR and it was very powerful. Her parents used to send feed to a studio from the helicopter and one of the audio engineers made a tape of the abuse her father used to give her mother - while flying - and sent it anonymously to her mother. He was an incredibly violent and abusive man. At one point, after transition in a debate they said to Ben Shapiro"You cut that out now, or you'll go home in an ambulance"

Around 2:05 in this video.

irishfeminist · 11/12/2022 22:53

Re other high profile stories of late "transitioning" (inverted commas deliberate) fathers, has anyone read Susan Faludi's "In the Darkroom" from a few years ago? Her father ticks every box - abusive, controlling, damaged by early trauma, fetishistic, misogynist - and she really tries to understand him, sometimes going to heartbreaking lengths and placing it all in the context of his surviving the Nazis as a Jewish man in Budapest.

www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jun/04/susan-faludi-getting-know-father-woman-the-darkroom

He's textbook though, and it's sadly ironic that the author of Backlash can't see what's glaringly obvious.

DuckDuckNo · 11/12/2022 22:57

I was just going to mention Susan Faludi's book but then pressed reload. Faludi's father really is textbook - that bit with him inviting Faludi to stay with him and then walking into her room with his dressing gown hanging open because "we're all women here teehee" especially comes to mind. I don't think it was the Holocaust that made him into Stephanie: I think it was the fetish.

irishfeminist · 11/12/2022 23:03

DuckDuckNo · 11/12/2022 22:57

I was just going to mention Susan Faludi's book but then pressed reload. Faludi's father really is textbook - that bit with him inviting Faludi to stay with him and then walking into her room with his dressing gown hanging open because "we're all women here teehee" especially comes to mind. I don't think it was the Holocaust that made him into Stephanie: I think it was the fetish.

Yes! I remember that awful bit, and he expected Susan to walk around undressed as well. So creepy and inappropriate. And she knew it was wrong.

@DerekFaker thanks for that clip, shocking that it's from 7 years ago and Tur threatening physical violence isn't even commented on.

nettie434 · 11/12/2022 23:16

Thanks for the share token BalooLikeYou. It is a very powerful article.

Sadly I couldn't get the google books review of Conundrum to work but SqueakyDinosaur's link gave a good flavour of it. Rebecca West via OldCrone didn't mince her words either.

What's interesting is that the contemporary reviews (other writers are cited in the blog, as well as Nora Ephron) certainly didn't buy into Morris's account.

Cattenberg · 11/12/2022 23:22

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 11/12/2022 11:48

Just popping this down, not to take the shine off Suki’s excellent writing and frank refusal to disappear inside Jan’s self written narrative, but to join some dots al la legendary MNetter R0wantrees…

Katy Tur, who is an American journalist/news anchor published her own childhood memoir earlier this year.

Katy’s parents were pioneers in helicopter journalism, her mother, Marika Gerrard and her father Bob Tur, documented fast paced and dangerous situations, Bob often hanging off the back of a helicopter.

Bob seems to me to be similar sort of chap to the Morris who documented the conquering of Everest.
Super macho men, but one step removed from the main adventurers, observers, but heroic, active, observers rather than passive ones. The documenting medium is different due, in part, to the decades in which these pioneering journalists made their names, but the parallels are striking.

Bob changed his name to Zoey in 2013.

theguardian.com/books/2022/jun/11/rough-draft-review-katy-turs-fascinating-and-flawed-story-of-news-and-family

look at the above article and see how far down you have to go before you get to the transition (spoiler: a long way!)

here’s a couple of extracts:

But according to Katy Tur, her father was unable to unlearn the worst lessons of his childhood and repeated the pattern of violence in his adult life, striking his wife, whipping Katy and her brother, punching holes in the living room walls.

Her father told her he had “decided to become a woman. It’s why I’ve been so angry.”

After the transition, Zoey Tur attacked Katy Tur for allegedly being transphobic. She insists she has always been supportive of such a courageous decision. But what she could not forgive was Zoey’s refusal to discuss or acknowledge the violence Bob Tur inflicted on his family, because the man who committed it no longer existed.

Tur writes: “It felt like my dad was playing a get-out-of-gender-free card I didn’t know existed … I was dumbfounded by the idea that a person could change their gender … and think that in the process the deeds of the past would no longer be relevant.”

It was “like a bank robber pleading not guilty on account of gender misalignment. But that’s how my father saw it.”

“Bob Tur is dead,” Zoey Tur said.

But, Katy Tur replied, “The stuff Bob Tur did isn’t dead.”

Katy is Tur’s only daughter, she has one brother.

Whilst googling the links for this I was horrified to see that, according to Google, Marika Gerrard’s main achievement is being ‘Zoey Tur’s ex wife’, rather than oooh, I dunno, her 17 years working for the LA Times and then cofounding a news channel, having sound recordist and production credits on three documentary films or being a singer songwriter with a Masters in Philosophy… plus Gerrard was married to Bob, not Zoey (they split TEN YEARS PRIOR to Bob’s ‘coming out’!)

Even ‘Katy Tur’s mother’ would surely be an improvement?

here’s short interview with Bob/Zoey about transition from 9 years ago (using both names as the article does):

www.kpcc.org/show/offramp/2013-09-04/zoey-101-chopper-pilot-bob-tur-becomes-zoey-tur-part-2

Short clip of Katy here:

Excellent review of/ reflection on Katy’s memoir Rough Draft on the Children of Transitioners website here:

childrenoftransitioners.org/2022/08/14/the-wrong-side-of-his-story-reviewing-rough-draft-by-katy-tur/

I’d bloody love a long podcast series with all these three women, Suki, Katy and the author of the CoT blog.
All of them are so interesting and insightful and have grown into fascinating, intellectually accomplished women despite having incredibly difficult fathers who tried to dull their brilliance (due to what I can only assume is envy and attempts to control due to their biological, immutable, female sex).

(apologies for typos and bad formatting, Mumsnet’s current tendency to reload and jettison a long post while I’m still writing it is driving me doolally and it’s not worth the risk of losing the whole thing for the sake of a few typos/autocucumbers)

(Also, proper love that Suki is ‘Morys’ not ‘Morris’)

Excellent review of/ reflection on Katy’s memoir Rough Draft on the Children of Transitioners website here:

childrenoftransitioners.org/2022/08/14/the-wrong-side-of-his-story-reviewing-rough-draft-by-katy-tur/

I’ve just read this review. This bit leapt put at me.

I have also had that sense of bewilderment when my love is rebuffed. But anything other than complete capitulation is unacceptable. And, I suspect, even complete capitulation isn’t enough when what your father really wants is the chance to punish you for being a woman while claiming to be the victim.

Cattenberg · 11/12/2022 23:22

*leapt out

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 11/12/2022 23:35

irishfeminist · 11/12/2022 22:53

Re other high profile stories of late "transitioning" (inverted commas deliberate) fathers, has anyone read Susan Faludi's "In the Darkroom" from a few years ago? Her father ticks every box - abusive, controlling, damaged by early trauma, fetishistic, misogynist - and she really tries to understand him, sometimes going to heartbreaking lengths and placing it all in the context of his surviving the Nazis as a Jewish man in Budapest.

www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jun/04/susan-faludi-getting-know-father-woman-the-darkroom

He's textbook though, and it's sadly ironic that the author of Backlash can't see what's glaringly obvious.

I've not read it, but had she spoken to other adult children in similar family circumstances?

You need to see/be told of other males exhibiting such behaviour to see a pattern, don't you? Otherwise you'd naturally assume it was all unique to your own father, especially if he had such a distressing background you could attribute it to.

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