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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?

565 replies

ILikeDungs · 09/12/2022 11:22

By Unherd, a debate-style response to the purity spiral after Brighton. I do admire Helen Joyce and her ability to calmly and logically discuss the issues. Unherd have made it age restricted (because of all the fucks, I suppose!):

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EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 10:06

Thanks for the videos. I don’t have the time to watch them right now, but I have been subconsciously ticking over the thread in my mind.

I think it was early in this thread, but it might be a different one, I was talking about how I can’t be bothered to do all the patriarchal, gendered beauty practices, although it is likely more ‘doors would open’ for me if I did.

Something I like about feminism is the fact that most other feminists don’t engage in patriarchal, gendered beauty practices either, so the pressures is off. No one recoils in horror even if they do quietly judge. I can be pegged as ‘probably a feminist’ and left alone.

However, I know, for sure, that a section of society who would completely switch off before I even spoke, would listen to Posie, because she does observe patriarchal, gendered beauty practices (obviously she is naturally pretty and vivacious, I mean something different from just being attractive), so she gives the impression of playing the game, not opting out, like me.

Personally, I love my assumptions being confounded, it brings me such joy and amusement to see the confusion on faces of people, confronted this glamour-puss with a mouth like an uncompromising radical feminist. Where can you peg her?

However, I think people who are wedded to this idea of solidarity, holding yourself back in solidarity with your sisters, denying yourself in solidarity, basically this ‘together we are strong’ suffering together, might feel that using patriarchal, gendered beauty practices to open up avenues unavailable to your sisters is some kind of individualistic act of betrayal.

I can imagine that short-haired, bared-faced trade unionist women who managed to gain political influence based on their intelligence, grit and political nous in a ‘man’s world’ alone, might be a bit peeved.

Anyway, this is all conjecture. I am crazily creating a straw man to try to shoot me down, because I do want to be able to put myself in the shoes of people who hate Posie and try to sabotage her activism, saying it is because her ‘working with’ or ‘cosying up to’ the right/far right is such a danger to feminism/women’s rights as a whole. I don’t know if many of you saw a thread, which was pulled, with some completely insane reasons for hating Posie - this ludicrous lie that she had gone to a posh boarding school in Hong Kong, funded by her grandparents, or complaints that she lives in a big house - I think there may even have been complaints that she can afford to get her nails done, iirc. The inference I drew from that is that she should hold herself back and suffer in solidarity with women worse off than her.

I feel that the talk and this thread, is really about that.

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 10:50

I’ve only just noticed this thread that was put up last night, which seems relevant:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4701744-kellie-jay-keen-and-heather-brunskell-evans-savage-minds-podcast

beastlyslumber · 20/12/2022 10:53

I agree that's what the debate was really about, and I wish they had just come out with it. JB at one point started basically describing KJK and repeating some of the disinformation about her. It was weird how it was all unsaid but everyone knew what was being said.

I do think maybe there's some judgement of Posie because she's attractive and practices femininity. Some women do completely reject femininity and they can get a harder time for it. I've noticed people are nicer to me when I wear a bit of make up compared to when I don't bother. Also how much better I'm treated when I'm slimmer. But I think partly it's because I just look better - studies show that people prefer beautiful people in almost all areas of life. Not saying I'm beautiful, either. Just that I don't think it's entirely about holding women to impossible standards of femininity.

But when I was younger, I did feel guilty for wanting to look attractive because the feminists around me were saying that it's pandering to the male gaze and objectifying and trivialising etc. There was a real villification of women who cared about style and beauty or made efforts with their appearance. They were considered 'bimbos' and 'airheads' and superficial and shallow etc. I think that attitude persisted for a long time. Even Taylor Swift sang about how "she wears short skirts, I wear t-shirts" -- criticising the attractive cheerleader who didn't really understand the boy they both liked. I think it's very confusing for girls and women who are told they should make a huge effort with their appearance but also that making a huge effort is shallow and stupid.

Which is where it ties in with this:

I can imagine that short-haired, bared-faced trade unionist women who managed to gain political influence based on their intelligence, grit and political nous in a ‘man’s world’ alone, might be a bit peeved.

I agree this may be part of the reason why JB and others hate Posie but I think it's very unfair to Posie and women in general. She didn't get her platform by being pretty and having nice hair. She is influential because of what she says and how she says it, and the fact that she's a marketing and tactical genius. If people put any of her success down to her looks, that is misogynist. I hate to think of the mentality that says women like her are supposed to be airheads and 'soccer moms' and know their place.

I think people who are wedded to this idea of solidarity, holding yourself back in solidarity with your sisters, denying yourself in solidarity, basically this ‘together we are strong’ suffering together, might feel that using patriarchal, gendered beauty practices to open up avenues unavailable to your sisters is some kind of individualistic act of betrayal.

I'm not sure about this solidarity idea. I still think it's more about hierarchy and meeting the standards within that hierarchical group in order to have status. If the elite within Real Feminism wore high heels and make up, everyone else would too. Instead, part of the way to gain status is to reject beauty and fashion and to condemn women who practice it as either shallow, or brainwashed, or coerced, or all three. Any in-group has to have an out-group.

beastlyslumber · 20/12/2022 10:55

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 10:50

I’ve only just noticed this thread that was put up last night, which seems relevant:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4701744-kellie-jay-keen-and-heather-brunskell-evans-savage-minds-podcast

Thanks tea! I'll listen to that today as I fight my way through the xmas madness. Elbows out!

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 11:28

I'm not sure about this solidarity idea. I still think it's more about hierarchy and meeting the standards within that hierarchical group in order to have status.

I think we are looking at the same thing from different perspectives.

In The Tyranny of Structurelessness, is explored this phenomenon of a sort of delusion of structurelessness, because informal structures will naturally form along friendship lines. It’s unintended but inevitable.

If you are part of the in crowd, you are part of the decision-making process, the executive power, if you are not part of the in crowd, because you don’t have the time, status, personality, etc, you are left a bit bewildered about how decisions are made, however, you are expected to accept the decisions you have no power to influence. It’s a hierarchy.

The only way you can seriously expect people to adhere to decision-making without their ability to influence it, is to float this idea of solidarity, we are all equals, in this together. What other notion could bring about blind obedience, without actually bringing a deity into the equation? Solidarity can be experienced as a profound feeling of virtue, enabling people to willingly suffer sacrifice, even if it is mistaken. This feeling, I wonder, may explain why people on the left feel virtuous, enforcing obedience to the unacknowledged power in the hierarchy, while tearing others down.

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 11:35

beastlyslumber · 20/12/2022 10:55

Thanks tea! I'll listen to that today as I fight my way through the xmas madness. Elbows out!

Ah. Yes. I need to crack on with that too! Spookily enough, I listened to the first couple of minutes and PP is talking about ‘which doors open’.

coldcoffee12 · 20/12/2022 12:08

Julie Bindall sneers at women who have children. She is not some one I relate to - as I have three kids. She is from a very small group of women who were gate keeping discussing womens rights. Have a good look at what Julie b really thinks about women who have children. My kids mean the world to me and apparently that make me a 'mombie'

I also own my own business so Ive typically leaned to the right in the past as Labour (left) absolutely do not represent me even though I grew up on an a council estate in Manchester and got kicked out of school at 15 for being pregnant.

So to Julie B et al I am the devil incarnate, dog dirt, the right - despite being a single mother who was kicked out of school and from a council estate.

I am sick of the right being used as an insult and to shame people in to voting for 'the left' which tbh is largely what got us in this mess to begin with.

So do I want to associated with Julie B and the 'left' no I bloody dont, no forced teaming for me I'm afraid. I'll just march to the beat of my own drum thanks and I suggest they do the same

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 12:15

<<ducked out of Xmas prep - still ticking over>>

I agree with this:

She didn't get her platform by being pretty and having nice hair. She is influential because of what she says and how she says it, and the fact that she's a marketing and tactical genius. If people put any of her success down to her looks, that is misogynist. I hate to think of the mentality that says women like her are supposed to be airheads and 'soccer moms' and know their place.

Yet, I’ve no doubt that her looks have played a part in opening new channels for feminist arguments to be heard. It’s sort of unchartered territory. People who normally automatically filter them out “not interested in this ugly, whiney, man-hating feminazi”, will stop and listen to her.

What if feminism suddenly has a massive influx of people, who are coming at it from a completely different angle than more established feminists? What will happen to the established non-hierarchical hierarchy?

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 14:29

Since everyone has/had a mother who made sacrifices for them to live@coldcoffee12 I think of anyone who sneers at us as an ungrateful brat.

Floisme · 20/12/2022 14:34

'Julie Bindall sneers at women who have children...'
I'm going to defend Julie on this particular point because I didn't become a mum until I was in my 40s, and before then I remember being at the sharp end of some thoughtless, patronising and occasionally hurtful behaviour from some mothers. I'm sure it was all unintentional but it stung and there were times when, if I'd had a platform like Julie's, I might well have bitten back. I've no idea what JB's inner feelings are but I try and cut her some slack.

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 14:56

Congratulations on having children in your 40s Floisme - i know a number of women who have needed to throw in the towel after trying so hard. I have felt inhibited about sharing my motherly joys with them.

I have experienced an awful lot of clueless judgemental comments from non-parents “wouldn’t it be easy to just”, “why don’t you just”, “I can’t believe that mother does”, etc, snide remarks about babies on planes, etc, loads of nasty child hating. I kept it zipped, instead of shouting “if you had kids of your own, you would know you were talking out of your arse”, because I know that it is a sensitive and painful issue for a lot of people, to not be parents.

Why doesn’t she cut mothers some slack instead?

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 15:08

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 10:50

I’ve only just noticed this thread that was put up last night, which seems relevant:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4701744-kellie-jay-keen-and-heather-brunskell-evans-savage-minds-podcast

Listening now, this is a very meaty and satisfying discussion 👌

Floisme · 20/12/2022 15:43

Thank you EndlessTea Smile

Why doesn’t she cut mothers some slack instead?
She may do a lot of the time. The downside of the internet is that, whenever I lost patience, it was only witnessed by a few people whereas JB's snarks are there forever.

MangyInseam · 20/12/2022 17:01

Just a couple of thoughts, not sure how relevant but I am stuck in bed with a bad back, so I will put them down anyway:

In The Tyranny of Structurelessness, is explored this phenomenon of a sort of delusion of structurelessness, because informal structures will naturally form along friendship lines. It’s unintended but inevitable.

I think that's true, but also that we should be clear that it is not just "lines of friendship" which seems unintentional and only accidentally harmful. This kind of formlessness also allows for informal hierarchies to emerge along the lines of power, and sometimes even bare, aggressive power. With groups of women that's not typically violence, but the idea among some feminists that women don't have a will to power is completely naive. They assert it in different ways, but it can be deeply destructive and sociopathic, at its worst. Where there are no controlled hierarchies any individual who is able to assert power through means not embedded in the supposed even playing field has almost complete freedom to use those means. That could be things like social capital (which may look quite different than we expect in an group that believes itself to be egalitarian), money, education, but very often it can be intelligence, personality, and other intangibles.

Non-hierarchical can be very close to anarchic, which just comes down to the strongest holding power.

The other thing I'd comment on is the idea of patriarchal, imposed beauty standards. I think there are a lot of issues with how female beauty operates in our culture - it's highly sexualized and energy-intensive. In ways that aren't good for women, but neither are they really good for society as a whole.

But the idea that it is some kind of social imposition that women want to look attractive to men, is, I think, complete bollocks. Women want to look attractive to men because of the biological imperative, the same reason men want to be attractive to women. We are primed to want to screw, and that involved sexual attraction which runs along slightly different lines for men and women. There is no scenario where that will go away for men and women as a whole, and there is no scenario where that urge won't be culturally mediated, because we are cultural animals. And because we are sexed, and sex is about difference, we will not see a scenario where the cultural markers for attractiveness for women and men will be identical.

If feminism thought it could just remove that kind of desire from women, or exclude any women who is moved by that, it would always be very limited, and would always be felt by many women as somewhat oppressive, which would make them either a little mad, or to feel guilty.

I do get the sense that this is something JB just doesn't get, because she really believes at some level that women should just not be interested in men. I don't know that I believe she is really a political lesbian, in the sense that she ever would have been interested in being attractive to men at a biological, I want to screw, kind of level, or even, I want to be in love, kind of way. But it's not wrong, or anti-woman, that women are often, usually, wanting male sexual partners. It's not some kind of social construct.

beastlyslumber · 20/12/2022 17:10

I totally agree with you, Mangy. It's very alienating for a lot of women to be scolded by feminists for spending time and money on their appearance. Most straight women want to look attractive to men and that is a biological drive, not a social construct. I don't think that beauty standards are "patriarchal" either. I think that the extreme beauty practices we're seeing more of now are driven by commercialism. The same thing is also happening to men to some extent. There's no part of your face or body that you can't now spend money on or buy a product for. It's a bit mad.

I hope you're not in too much pain with your back.

beastlyslumber · 20/12/2022 17:13

That podcast from the other thread is brilliant. KJK very gracious and forgiving, tbh. More than I would be!

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 17:19

This is interesting, especially because I am listening to the Savage Minds podcast in little chunks.

the idea among some feminists that women don't have a will to power is completely naive. They assert it in different ways, but it can be deeply destructive and sociopathic

In the podcast, Posie discloses something which makes me realise that Judith Green is utterly Machiavellian. Something I had no idea about. I had always assumed that the way Women’s Place was started up as a reaction to Venice Allan’s ‘We Need To Talk’ meetings was done with more of a sense of respect, it struck me as odd that they didn’t openly give her credit, but I assumed that VA felt she didn’t have the time and energy or wanted to stick to her own format, so they thought it would be easier to set up WP separately.

It makes me realise how VA and KJK really are the better people about this, that I had no idea until today.

MangyInseam · 20/12/2022 17:30

beastlyslumber · 20/12/2022 17:10

I totally agree with you, Mangy. It's very alienating for a lot of women to be scolded by feminists for spending time and money on their appearance. Most straight women want to look attractive to men and that is a biological drive, not a social construct. I don't think that beauty standards are "patriarchal" either. I think that the extreme beauty practices we're seeing more of now are driven by commercialism. The same thing is also happening to men to some extent. There's no part of your face or body that you can't now spend money on or buy a product for. It's a bit mad.

I hope you're not in too much pain with your back.

Yup, I think commercialism is behind most of it too, and women were targeted because they spend the most household money. Now we see men being more and more targeted too in an effort to mine every seam.

I think my back is on the mend, it's not hurting now, I am making myself stay in bed the rest of the day in hopes I can go back to work the rest of the week before the Christmas break.

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 17:32

Most straight women want to look attractive to men and that is a biological drive, not a social construct.

I agree with this.

I don't think that beauty standards are "patriarchal" either.

I completely disagree with this. Men are not expected to uphold beauty standard to a level any where close to what is expected of women. Men are not judged and scrutinised almost solely upon their appearance as women are. Men don’t have beauty pageants, akin to farmers shows, where women judge them like livestock based on their appearance. Men are not expected to inconvenience themselves, to hamper their ability to breathe, sit or run comfortably, in impractical clothes in order to be attractive… i could keep going on into the night…

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 17:40

Thinking of a couple of friends of mine who are really into make up. They ended up having relationships with men who whine when they hadn’t got make up on. And that is a bit of a dis. The subtext is “I don’t really like your real face, can you paint over it so I can fancy you more please”. It seems pretty patriarchal to me.

beastlyslumber · 20/12/2022 17:43

But your conclusion doesn't logically follow your premise. Just because men don't follow the same beauty practices as women doesn't mean beauty standards are "patriarchal" - unless by "patriarchal" you mean something which more women do than men.

I don't actually know what feminists mean when they talk about patriarchy because according to the actual definition it means "under male rule." But it's clear that men aren't making women wear make up, so you can't mean that women wear make up/follow beauty practices because men decree it. The patriarchy exists in places like Iran and Afghanistan, so to say we live in a patriarchy in the UK makes no sense to me. It must mean something different, but I don't know what!

beastlyslumber · 20/12/2022 17:45

We cross-posted! So you're talking about patriarchy on an individual scale - women who are with men who tell them what to do/wear etc? But most women aren't in that situation. And even then, they have the choice to leave, the legal right to divorce etc. I just don't see how it can be the same thing as actual patriarchy.

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 17:51

BeastlySlumber, I would say yes, it is a male dominated society. A society where men have higher social status and governing power than women. Also male domination in the home and family too.

Feminism has come pretty far, but we are not there yet.

In some jobs, men literally are telling women to wear make up, shave their legs, wear heels.

There was the case a few years back of the woman working at Harrods who was being disciplined for not wearing make up, even though the men aren’t required to wear make up in the policy.

The emphasis on women’s appearance compared to men evidence of our lower social status. Stand there and be decorative while the men do the important stuff.

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 17:54

Patriarchy is at both the macro and the micro level.

You can’t make a free choice in a vacuum where patriarchy and misogyny never existed.

beastlyslumber · 20/12/2022 17:59

In some jobs, men literally are telling women to wear make up, shave their legs, wear heels.

This is very, very rare now. And against the law, I believe.

The emphasis on women’s appearance compared to men evidence of our lower social status. Stand there and be decorative while the men do the important stuff.

We're just not living in the same world with this! It's not the world I live in at all.

A society where men have higher social status and governing power than women. Also male domination in the home and family too.

I just don't think that's true to a large extent. There are still some sexist attitudes and old fashioned attitudes, but we've had three female PMs now (okay one of them only lasted a week). And women can divorce their husbands, there are laws against marital rape and now against coercive control.

I just do not believe that Iran is a patriarchy and the UK is a patriarchy. Both things cannot be true at the same time. It diminishes the experiences of women under patriarchy to say we also live in a patriarchy. We have incredible freedoms and rights the same as men in every area of life. Yes there are still inequalities (maybe there always will be - we are different, after all) but try telling any girl now that she's inferior to a boy and has to do what boys tell her to do. Or a woman that she has to do what men tell her to do.

This is a hill I will die on. We do not live under patriarchy! (However, I will concede that gender ideology could wipe out all our rights and put us back there.)