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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?

565 replies

ILikeDungs · 09/12/2022 11:22

By Unherd, a debate-style response to the purity spiral after Brighton. I do admire Helen Joyce and her ability to calmly and logically discuss the issues. Unherd have made it age restricted (because of all the fucks, I suppose!):

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EndlessTea · 24/12/2022 14:14

Shinyredbicycle · 24/12/2022 13:33

Sorry, it was me that brought up racism to make the point that it has many shades, as does patriarchal power.

Not comparing feminism to CRT at all.

I was responding more to this comparison made by MangyInSeam:

terms like systemic racism - it lumps together disparate things and gives the illusion of understanding phenomena when really they've only been labeled.

Misstache · 24/12/2022 17:20

That’s not at all what CRT is, though. It’s opponents to CRT who use it as a catch-all phrase (much like the way “woke” is used) to mean “anything that talks about race.” CRT specifically looks at the ways political/economic/social/legal systems emerge from and continue to reflect the organization of racial (specifically anti-Black) hierarchy. So, for example, while Civil Rights organized around the idea that if black people could get access to the same rights as white people - such as voting, bank loans, education, professional opportunity -racism would effectively disappear, CRT recognizes that slavery wasn’t only a historic event that simply ended once a bill is signed - it organized society in particular ways that continue to impact us. This is why black people continue to be disenfranchised, but now through red-lining districts, voter ID laws, gerrymandering, etc. More black lawyers doesn’t change the way laws/the courts/policing etc. developed in specific ways to protect white property, for example.

Saidiya Hartman, for example, in Scenes of Subjection looks at how enslavement era laws meant a Black woman was properly and therefore she could not be raped nor prosecute her rapist nor serve as a witness, but if she killer her rapist, she could be prosecuted. In other words, she could exist as a perpetrator but not a victim. We can understand the ways Megan Thee Stallion is being treated right now as in line with the ways Black women’s bodies/rapes existed under slavery. The idea of CRT is that there are real historical choices and decisions that formed these institutions, and simply adding Black people to the existing power structure doesn’t address that underlying structure. The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander, for example, argued that after enslavement, minor charges for things like trespassing or vagrancy began to be used to “re-enslave” Black people. Her argument is that once slavery is abolished, the prison system comes in its place to discipline and control black people.

Adolph Reed - who I’ve actually taken a course with - doesn’t disagree that structural racism exists, his argument is that he disagrees with what he sees as the ahistorical ways in which people say “nothing has changed.” His argument is from the radical Black tradition; it’s that elites use their experience of race within elite settings to argue that this is the same as Jim Crow, while ignoring the role of class. In other words, he doesn’t disagree poor black people are shot by the police; he just thinks that middle-class black people will use this to argue that they are equally subject to policing while ignoring the class-based element that means poor white people are also subject to enhanced policing. He sees the construction of the “black community” as a fiction created by white elites for black elites who are invited “to the table” under the myth they speak for all black people. His complaint with “identity politics” isn’t that race or racism don’t exist or aren’t systemic, it’s that the discourse of race is wielded by black elites to gain entry into white elite institutions and gain adjacency to white power themselves rather than actually doing anything for the oppressed black masses. He critiques this hyper-focus on racial identity - like asking Hillary Clinton if she accepts she has white privilege rather than challenging her on policy - rather than the material impacts of race. So people will cry over Megan experiencing racism from the Royal family, etc. as if this says anything about the experience of black women in the UK working as domestics, for example. Or focus on the experiences of black students in elite institutions while doing nothing to organize for those without housing - in other words, he objects to black capitalism and opportunistic politics. He objects to the superficial and performative representative politics that sees Obama being president as some kind of victory for radical struggle. But he doesn’t dismiss the need for radical struggle, he just sees it as requiring a class-based analysis that works in solidarity with other struggles internationally as well. He disagrees with Afro-pessimism as a philosophical formation, but it would be a mistake to think he dismisses the reality of race.

Misstache · 24/12/2022 17:21

Ugh sorry about typos. Property and killed, etc.

Misstache · 24/12/2022 17:26

In shorter words, Reed thinks racism exists alongside class-based oppression and that rather than programs that, say, give a few black students entry to Harvard and call that “equity” we should be fighting for free universal education for all. By ignoring class, middle class and wealthy black elites benefit, and the mass working classes of all races continue to be oppressed. He wants us to work together across struggles against capitalist power instead of buying into a divide and rule that separates those struggles. He gets mis-understood by both the right and left in this.

Misstache · 24/12/2022 17:56

A Marxist analysis of anti-Black racism begins with an analysis of property and labour. As Eric Williams said 80 years ago now in Capitalism and Slavery, “racism didn’t create slavery: slavery created racism.” His point is that the logic of race followed that of labour - black people were needed to build the Americas, therefore ideologies of race arose in order to justify that subordinate labour. Reed and others follow this idea; that talking about race and racism in moral terms (Williams critiques the notion that it was British empathy rather than the changing demands of the economy or labour market that led to the abolition of slavery) rather than economic renders discussion of race unintelligible. It’s not that white people need to engage in self-examination about their privilege - a moral act - it’s that we need to address the economic and material ways that the idea of race serves capitalism.

Similarly, a traditional feminist reading of patriarchy began with the idea that women’s reproductive labour is required to produce the future workers. This is why the reading of gender - that it is some feminine essence that patriarchal power objects to, and not the material reality of women’s bodies - doesn’t work. The gender argument is that patriarchy oppresses the feminine rather than it is the reproductive power of women that must be controlled. The objection to reading gender over sex is similar to the objection to elevating personal racial identity and self-focused experience in understanding race/racism.

EndlessTea · 26/12/2022 11:14

Thanks Misstache for these in depth posts

It’s not that white people need to engage in self-examination about their privilege - a moral act - it’s that we need to address the economic and material ways that the idea of race serves capitalism.

This “idea of race serves capitalism” is very much an analysis of internal American politics, American history and American thinking “America is the world, therefore our politics is the world’s politics”. In Europe and Africa, slavery was going on (and still is, for that matter), long before Africans sold their slaves to Europeans and Europeans colonised the Americas, creating this racialised class inequality in America.

Because our history is different, it is why causes of inequality such as class inequality and natural bias towards one’s own similar group and actual hatred of ‘others’ is conflated in a confused way that doesn’t make sense in the UK when analysing structural racism using the American model.

This I do not agree with:

a traditional feminist reading of patriarchy began with the idea that women’s reproductive labour is required to produce the future workers.

This is a marxist reading, not a ‘traditional feminist’ one.

Misstache · 27/12/2022 15:22

Sorry, but Eric Williams was a Trinidadian who grew up in a country colonized and ruled by England and wrote “Capitalism and Slavery” at Oxford in the 1940s. His analysis of politics and economics has nothing to do with the US - or, at least, is not grounded in the US at all but in British relation to enslavement and colonization - and in his subsequent work as an economist he traced all the ways England in particular economically benefited from slavery. The book was recently re-released in the UK after being suppressed for nearly 80 years.

CLR James, Walter Rodney, Claudia Cumberbatch Jones, etc. all thinkers raised squarely within the English Caribbean tradition who apply this reading.

I’m not trying to be argumentative, but discussions of race on here tend to be frustrating in the ways that people tend to assign race and racism as something that belongs to the US. And I think some of this - mimimizing? Lack of encounter with? - race within the UK shades these discussions about allying with the right, like racial views can be safely ignored or don’t exist.

ArabellaScott · 27/12/2022 15:27

That's all interesting, thanks.

I think it may be worth noting that not only is the US very different in all respects from the UK, but race is a very different issue in various parts of the UK. Historically, culturally, legally - Scotland is not England, etc.

Seems unlikely US issues would map neatly onto the UK, likewise with English/Scottish/Irish. Such different dynamics and histories.

Misstache · 27/12/2022 15:41

I agree - also the histories of colonization, etc. within the UK - speaking of the Welsh and Scottish and Irish as subhuman, wiping out Indigenous language, etc. That doesn’t map onto “white” - which is itself a construction.

EndlessTea · 28/12/2022 01:20

Tbh I am a bit sick of anti-English thing. England was colonised by the Romans, there were Viking invasions before the French. And it was the French who built all those castles along the Welsh border. East Anglia and Cornwall had their own languages too (some people still speak it) - are they not England? The English language is a consists of a bit of ‘the indigenous languages’, with Latin, Viking and French slapped on top. The Welsh, Scots and Irish were just better at pushing back against colonisers than what became the English.

If the Scots are so blameless when it comes to the slavery of Africans, then why do so many current residents of the Caribbean have Scottish surnames?

When it came to the beneficiaries of slavery of Africans, there were some Brits who became decadent, filthy rich, but I don’t think anyone in the cotton mills or the workhouses in England felt the benefit.

At the end of the day, it is the racialised class system in America, which is different to the UK. The roots of our class system goes much further back.

Misstache · 28/12/2022 02:45

Yes, the people of the docks of London and Liverpool and the women in the cotton mills of Manchester and many other members of the working classes recognized that their labour conditions unloading or working with the goods of slavery mirrored the conditions of enslaved people and they shared common cause - that their condition as workers under capitalism depended on the position of enslaved Africans in the colonies from which the goods came. Because capitalism and slavery are linked. Im not sure why we’re arguing, therefore!

Misstache · 28/12/2022 05:30

Anyway, I feel like I’ve taken this thread off topic! Sorry!

EndlessTea · 28/12/2022 07:40

Sorry Misstache. I think I have recently been feeling a bit bruised and hyper-sensitive through a lifetime of feeling subtle contempt from people and indoctrination in guilt, that I should take all the shit I get because of the country, place and colour I was born. It might sound over the top, but I am really done with lazy generalisations about the English, Southerners, Londoners and white people. I know your point was more subtle, but I wanted to challenge this narrative that was starting to be implied by a combination of different posters points in the discussion - that the English are the Imperialist, enslaving, exploiting evil. Our African immigrants are more likely to be the descendants of slave traders than slaves, you now have dual language everything in Wales, and devolved powers are turning out to be a nightmare and a wasted opportunity, driven by the hatred of the English and needing to prove a point about it, rather than local decisions to benefit local people.

ArabellaScott · 28/12/2022 11:09

But I wasn't suggesting anyone was blameless, or to blame. Just that the histories, dynamics, cultures and laws are very different. Remove the moral judgement from the equation!

EndlessTea · 28/12/2022 12:35

I understand Arabella. I am a bit hyper-sensitive and it was the back and forth of the conversation that was starting to give the appearance of anti-English vibes.

I am so fed up of all the misinformation that is floated with good intent (including what is being taught in schools), but is having real world consequences. I feel like I am going to challenge it from now on. Just yesterday, the TV landed on this rolling documentary about Pompeii. I couldn’t believe it- they felt they needed to specify that the slaves weren’t African. Are people so ignorant about the history of slavery that this needs to be said?

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