Kellie-Jay Keen and Heather Brunskell-Evans - Savage Minds podcast

[IwantToRetire]

savageminds.substack.com/p/kellie-jay-keen-and-heather-brunskell

Intro:

Kellie-Jay Keen, aka Posie Parker, a British women's right campaigner, and Heather Brunskell-Evans, a feminist academic, discuss the class division within British feminism that has largely pivoted around and taken aim at Keen’s persona and activism. Giving historical perspective beginning with an event to which she had been invited at a Women’s Place UK event in Wales in the Spring 2018, Keen discusses how the manner in which she was disinvited was “libel-proof” where by WPUK effectively issued a statement that slated Keen as a racist without directly using these words. Noting that WPUK operates through “guilt by association,” Keen expatiates how this organisation weaponised the notion that guilt by association is “something that you can actually do to someone.” Keen discusses the events of January 2019 where she was accused of having “collaborated with the far-right” where in fact she and Julia Long undertook political activism to hold a political figure to account for having advocated the placement of a violent male prisoner in a woman’s prison and she had organised a public event for women to come and speak publicly. She observes, “If we start saying that free speech and the right to assemble and the right for free association…are something that the right do, then what does that say about the left? Because it’s not good.” Brunskell-Evans chronicles the purist policing within British feminism warning how this will leave a terrible legacy for future generations because the there is an attempt to frame the split in British feminism as merely “a bunch of women fighting with each other” which eschews what is actually going on. Elaborating how disagreement is part of any healthy liberal democracy, Brunskell-Evans expounds that these leftist feminists’ monstering of Keen has postured itself as disagreement when it is anything but. Brunskell-Evans details how these leftist feminists have engaged in policing and surveillance of thought together with ad hominem and defamatory attacks of Keen in what has been a uniquely authoritarian move in the guise of shutting down free speech and the grassroots movement that Keen facilitates.

Thanks for the link. Looks interesting. Might put some noses out of joint!

Thanks for posting. Listening in bed now!

The intro music is vile, like fingers down a blackboard.

Ooh thanks for this. Will have a listen!

Sounds interesting, thanks!

I’m listening to this now. It’s an interesting discussion and it helps give some background to recent events.
It’s helped clarify my own view on what’s been occurring and I’m more sure of where I will give support from now on.

It's a really interesting discussion.

Dittany!

I think it's fair to say that mn had a fair hand in the start of what HBE names 4th wave feminism. I've just got to her part but will have to pause.

Was tempted to find the thread KJK mentions where dittany "educated" her!

I think you might struggle. When I tried reading back through earlier feminism threads, it seems Dittany’s posts have been deleted so threads make very little sense.

I posted the link as it came up on my facebook feed. Not sure how but I get info from the person (not sure if they are male or female) who runs Savage Minds and thought it curious as some of the stuff they cover is a bit strange, conspiracy theories and covid lies and so on. Not particulary feminist.

So maybe asking these two women to speak is partly being anti establishment and always questioning the contrived narratives of not just the media, but politcal groupings.

Hope to find time to listen before the end of the week.

Julian is female and has been actively outspoken on the gender issue for some time.

I'm not keen on her other stuff but she's interesting on this.

Blurb from Spotify: Tune into Savage Minds where we discuss the political, scientific and cultural subjects of the day with the experts.

Scrolling through the list of interviewees it looks pretty impressive! Lots of feminists.

Well I thought that discussion was brilliant. It made things very clear. I also liked Posie's "lesson" - don't judge people unless they've done something personally to you. Hearsay and rumours are just that.

I thought it was interesting but not surprising how very gracious KJK is towards her detractors.

HBE was similarly interesting. But her approach is quite different from KJK's I think. She characterised gender ideology as a new form of misogyny, whereas KJK talks about it more in terms of controlling language to control how we think. Although of course she's always talking about misogyny too.

I also thought Julian Vigo's critique of Jane Clare Jones was interesting.

Thanks for sharing this. I'm glad this discussion is getting out in the open.

I've not listened to many but the one with Michael Biggs is interesting. They both were in sociology and describe what led them to seeing through gender ideology due to the way it was being used at university. Sudden lack of critical thinking and discussion for example.

Gina Rippon's is also good (I think one of the earliest ones.)

I really enjoyed this podcast. I love to hear KJK talking in a friendly interview like this and being free to go in depth.

I found it interesting that JCJ has been so instrumental in the rift. With JCJ, ime, she seemed to come from nowhere, and I felt straight away something of the Emperor’s New Clothes about her - I couldn’t be bothered to finish reading anything she wrote - a big muddle splurge peppered with her love of Prince - I couldn’t pull anything insightful out of it. Suddenly Glinner was going on about her like she was a key figure and I thought, eh? Have you read anything she’s written?

Id be really interested to know how she managed to get into a position where she could create so much havoc.

Yes very interesting listen. To be quite honest it makes me love KJK even more. She is kind yet fierce, yet fair. She has done so much and peaked so many women.

With regards to JCJ, I saw her once post that she was a very argumentative teen... I think she hans't changed. Some people just thrive in conflict. Possible narcissism. Not to detract from some of the things she has created, I enjoy reading Radical Notion, but we are all himans with possible personality flaws.

I will listen tomorrow thank you for the recommendation.
Anyone who has listened please subscribe or leave a review, this is how podcasts can grow to be shared more widely and continue to create content.

I really like HBE but my goodness she waffles all over the place! Whereas KJK doesn't waste single word.

I have mixed feelings about Julian Vigo. I really want to like her but I've muted her on Twitter because she's annoying in a way I can't quite describe. Lots of insight from her here on JCJ. Quite damaging I'd have thought.

Really enjoyed listening to this (apart from the opening/closing music). Thanks for linking it OP.

That was a really enjoyable listen.

I agree that left wing feminists are using TRA tactics to discredit anyone in women's movement that they don't like and let's face it, it is personal, there is no way that JB thinks KJK is right wing.

I thought the point about children being taught that gender has always been a fluid option was really interesting and helps to explain why younger people believe so strongly in the trans oppression narrative, they have been persuaded that until now trans people have not been free to express themselves. Of course there is some merit to that argument but TRA's portray it as something that has been going on for centuries on a scale akin to slavery which I don't believe is accurate.

Who is the host? I want to hear the interview but her voice is hard to listen to

I’ve listened to Dr Vigo for ages (and Love the intro music! go figure!!)I just wish she talked less and her guests more, but she’s also very interesting and has been quietly working away at building an interesting podcast with some amazing interviewees.

Dr Brunskell-Evans has done some interesting podcasts with Benjamin Botce and also I think Stella O’Malley and Sasha Ayadh - she has an excellent take on post-structuralist theory and how feminists can use it rather than reject it out of hand. (We could think of it as using our opponents’ weapons to disarm them).

I thought the point about children being taught that gender has always been a fluid option was really interesting and helps to explain why younger people believe so strongly in the trans oppression narrative, they have been persuaded that until now trans people have not been free to express themselves.

Also, explains why they quite often have the misconception that we are saying that you can only be feminine if you're female, obviously as far away as you can get from our actual position!

I have been very disappointed seeing some of the comments that have been made about various women on Twitter, it has felt like bullying from women that I really would expect better from.