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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?

565 replies

ILikeDungs · 09/12/2022 11:22

By Unherd, a debate-style response to the purity spiral after Brighton. I do admire Helen Joyce and her ability to calmly and logically discuss the issues. Unherd have made it age restricted (because of all the fucks, I suppose!):

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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beastlyslumber · 20/12/2022 18:01

You don't need a vaccuum to be able to make a choice. If we have to take into account culture, context and history, no choice is ever completely free. That doesn't mean that we can't or don't make choices for our own benefit.

GrinitchSpinach · 20/12/2022 18:30

Floisme · 20/12/2022 15:43

Thank you EndlessTea Smile

Why doesn’t she cut mothers some slack instead?
She may do a lot of the time. The downside of the internet is that, whenever I lost patience, it was only witnessed by a few people whereas JB's snarks are there forever.

You are very generous, Floisme, and it speaks to your character. As for Julie Bindel, I don't think writing an entire screed claiming motherhood is "entirely selfish" represents a one-off frustrated snarky comment.

unherd.com/2022/07/why-i-didnt-want-children/

To be clear, I think it is shitty behavior for anyone to question a woman's choice not to have children. No one should do that to Julie.

I don't understand why she doesn't extend the same courtesy to women who have made a different choice. She feels free to tell mothers-more than 80% of women-that our choice is wrong and selfish.

Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?
GrinitchSpinach · 20/12/2022 18:32

Oh heck, formatting problem there. I didn't mean to strike through the statistic.

beastlyslumber · 20/12/2022 18:38

Well the headline is about having kids being selfish, but the actual article I wouldn't describe as a 'screed'. I don't agree with her but she isn't slagging off mothers so much as setting out her reasons for not wanting to be a mother. She writes:

Society can be unkind to those women who choose not to reproduce, but it can also be unkind to those that do. Working class mothers, in particular those raising children alone, often find that affordable childcare is non-existent; women who can’t afford to not work, as well as those that actively wish to, find that their lives are made near-impossible after they have children. Witnessing how these difficulties affect mothers certainly helped me decide that motherhood was not for me.

I don't know if she's written or said things that are more vitriolic, but in the absence of other context, I think that article is okay.

GrinitchSpinach · 20/12/2022 18:52

And despite there being, in my opinion, no unselfish reason for having children, those of us who choose to remain child-free are routinely called selfish.

Literally no unselfish reason, despite her catalog of the ways in which motherhood curtails women's free time and finances?

I am told I don’t know what I am missing, which is also untrue: I know exactly what I’m missing and I want none of it.

I find this very arrogant. "I haven't shared this experience which is very important to you, but I am certain I know everything about it and my judgment that it is not worthwhile for anyone is the only correct position in the matter."

Meanwhile, I have witnessed friends give up on trying to change the world in favour of having children, their focus shifting onto their own, ever-shrinking world.

Perhaps some of her friends have done this; I can't dispute that. But this is literally her only description of parenthood (apart from the unwilling mothers bit). Has she really never met nor can she imagine a woman for whom motherhood opened up new connections to other people and inspired a passion and dedication to take on issues that DO benefit society at large?

I find her contempt for mothers very off-putting, and also extremely poor politics. Since most women will become mothers at some point in our lives, how can we build an effective women's movement by telling them that motherhood makes them selfish and contemptible?

MangyInseam · 20/12/2022 19:11

As far as differences with male and female beauty standards:

I think this is driven by a few things. One being that male attraction works quite differently than female attraction. So you will always see a tendency to more visually noticeable beauty standards for women. I also think there is a much stronger tendency for markers of youth to a factor in female attractiveness, and for male peak attractiveness to be older, sometimes significantly so, and that will lead to potentially really different approaches to beauty. For women it will be around maintaining an appearance of youth, which is not really that easy.

We might reasonably ask why women don't become comfortable with appearing "older" once they have partners, and that is a very interesting question, I think. What it makes me think of is the way we often hear people say, how dowdy pictures of their mums or grandmums looked. Or comparing the appearance of the Golden Girls to the Sex and the City characters, at the same age. There is a real change of much older women working very hard to appear young, and if anyone wants to say that was caused by the patriarchy, I think they need to explain why it seemed less powerful back when there really were different roles for men and women. Instead, this seems to have ramped up as more women are competing for partners at an older age, and maybe as they are competing in the workplace too. The luxury of becoming a dowdy housewife seems to have given way to a perpetual need to remain young and vibrant.

But in addition to that, I think luxury product marketing has for a very long time focused on female consumers, because they have tended to control the household budget. So we have something like 100 years worth of layers of products and practices developed for that market - doing what advertising does, creating a need that didn't exist previously, and then providing a solution. We now, incidentally, see this happening more with the male market, and the gay male market being targeted as well because of it's high level of disposable income.

I'd ust point out two other things - there are, in reality, lots of women who don't bother much with any of this. You see them every day, they are all over the place. And the other is, I think the attempt to dismantle institutions like marriage and monogamy, which are not from the patriarchy, whatever that was, but were part of the supposed opening up of society and progress, have had the effect of sexializing women's clothing and presentation more than they ever were before. And many feminists continue on a regular basis to say that women need to have the choice to dress and present how they want,and that it is wrong to connect this with sexualization. so I am not sure it is the patriarch that is the real problem in this instance.

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 19:13

I just do not believe that Iran is a patriarchy and the UK is a patriarchy. Both things cannot be true at the same time.

I appreciate that we are all probably trying to juggle stuff at this moment in time, but this statement isn’t logical. Oranges and apples are both fruit.

To me I would see it in anthropological terms - like you can see that a troop of baboons is patriarchal. Or a herd of walrus. It’s a society structured around male domination and male hierarchies.

Human beings can live in lots of different ways and we have come very far as feminists. But I do not believe it is over yet, there’s still a lot more to be cracking on with.

This is a hill I will die on. We do not live under patriarchy!

Perhaps I don’t agree with your definition here. I don’t believe we are under patriarchy. We live in a patriarchal society - it’s nuts and bolts were put together in times when women had far fewer rights.

Anyway, I don’t really think this is the thread to be discussing whether there is still any need for feminism in the UK - that would be a very long one. So I’m going to leave this one here.

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 19:16

One being that male attraction works quite differently than female attraction. So you will always see a tendency to more visually noticeable beauty standards for women. I also think there is a much stronger tendency for markers of youth to a factor in female attractiveness, and for male peak attractiveness to be older, sometimes significantly so, and that will lead to potentially really different approaches to beauty.

This makes me want to bang my head against the desk. This is straight from the 1990s anti feminist backlash, when all those fellas were turning their porn habits into ‘legitimate research’ evo psych. I am so not interested in going back down that rabbit hole in this decade.

MangyInseam · 20/12/2022 19:46

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 19:16

One being that male attraction works quite differently than female attraction. So you will always see a tendency to more visually noticeable beauty standards for women. I also think there is a much stronger tendency for markers of youth to a factor in female attractiveness, and for male peak attractiveness to be older, sometimes significantly so, and that will lead to potentially really different approaches to beauty.

This makes me want to bang my head against the desk. This is straight from the 1990s anti feminist backlash, when all those fellas were turning their porn habits into ‘legitimate research’ evo psych. I am so not interested in going back down that rabbit hole in this decade.

You can bash your head all you like, and try and make out like it's an argument that pornography is a good idea, which is just an instrumental argument.

There is a shit ton of research to suggest that males and females do not have the same markers for sexual attraction, even in the animal kingdom. And why would they? They don't exist to be fair, or egalitarian, they exist to efficiently pass on DNA in the context of a natural human reproduction without technological interventions.

How we choose to manage all of that is a different question, but this idea that its all some kind of construction by the patriarchy for the benefit of men (and why does it benefit men in this explanation, anyway?) is just an ideological claim, not an evidenced one.

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 19:52

A lot of men, in particular, seem to enjoy doing that shit tonne of research. It’s a field with a strong male bias.

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 19:57

It makes be think about that research about sexual behaviour in female rats. When men did the experiments, they essentially set up a ‘rape chamber’ to study the female rats response. When a woman set up the experiment, she provided places of retreat, accessed by small holes the male was too big to fit through, the female’s behaviour was totally different. This was going on in the 1990s 2000s.

toomanytrees · 20/12/2022 22:09

Very interesting and thought provoking thread. One thing that struck me is Julie Bindel's tendency to mention right leaning people, religious people and far right people all in the same breath. It is a kind of mental bait and switch. I wonder if she has spent any time with conservative and religious people in social and work settings. She paints a stereotypical picture of them which is at odds with my experience. She asserts that these men want women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. What I observe is that these women want to stay home with their children when they are young. She asserts that these men think women are dirty, unclean. Where did she get this idea?

beastlyslumber · 20/12/2022 22:11

I'm not arguing against feminism. I'm saying we don't live in a patriarchy. It's insulting to women living under male rule to deny our freedoms and claim we're in the same boat.

beastlyslumber · 20/12/2022 23:48

male attraction works quite differently than female attraction. So you will always see a tendency to more visually noticeable beauty standards for women. I also think there is a much stronger tendency for markers of youth to a factor in female attractiveness, and for male peak attractiveness to be older, sometimes significantly so, and that will lead to potentially really different approaches to beauty. For women it will be around maintaining an appearance of youth, which is not really that easy.

I think this is clearly evident from an evolutionary perspective. Males are attracted to markers of fertility and women are attracted to markers of success and safety. We are still the same basic animals we've always been, so even though these markers have changed over time, we are still driven in these ways.

Louise Perry's book 'The Case Against the Sexual Revolution' is really good on all this stuff. I also like Bret and Heather Weinstein's lovely book, 'A Hunter-Gatherer's Guide to the 21st Century.'

MangyInseam · 21/12/2022 00:00

EndlessTea · 20/12/2022 19:52

A lot of men, in particular, seem to enjoy doing that shit tonne of research. It’s a field with a strong male bias.

That's not any kind of argument, you would pick that up in a moment if someone used it in the other direction. "Men did the research?" It's just an ad hominem dismissal.

Even if there was no research, the most you could say was that there was no scientific evidential basis for thinking men and women are attracted, in general, to different things. It wouldn't tell us that by nature they are attracted to the same things and somehow societiy changes that.

But then you'd still have to give some explanation for the fact that clearly, male and female attractivness are not identical, you've already said as much yourself as the starting point. "Patriarchy" isn't an answer for that, it doesn't tell us why, how it happened, the mechanism. How has this somehow socialized women into being attracted to a different type of man than they would otherwise? It seems a far more complicated scenario than the possibility that male fitness for procreation and female fitness are not measured by the same standard, which is very much a live viewpoint in biology.

beastlyslumber · 21/12/2022 00:06

I just do not believe that Iran is a patriarchy and the UK is a patriarchy. Both things cannot be true at the same time.

I appreciate that we are all probably trying to juggle stuff at this moment in time, but this statement isn’t logical. Oranges and apples are both fruit.

It only makes sense if a patriarchy can mean two or more things at once. I don't like this messing around with the definitions of words. If we live in a patriarchy then patriarchy means something completely different to what we've understood it to mean. Women in Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi live in patriarchies - their lives are ruled by men. They can't do anything except on the say so of a man. We don't live like that in the West. I grew up in the 70s and by the time I was a grown woman, we had full legal equality and I've been completely free to go where I want, do what I want, dress how I like, have whatever job I want, have children or not have them, marry or not, be lesbian or straight, drive a car, walk home by myself at night etc etc. It's emphatically not the same situation as I'd be in if I was Iranian. In fact, it's the situation that Iranian women are fighting and dying to be in. So to say it's the same thing just doesn't make sense to me.

Perhaps I don’t agree with your definition here. I don’t believe we are under patriarchy. We live in a patriarchal society - it’s nuts and bolts were put together in times when women had far fewer rights.

Okay, but this isn't much of a distinction to me. I agree we have lived under patriarchy at times in the past. But that doesn't mean we haven't overthrown it. Or is Patriarchy some nebulous undercurrent that we live in without knowing it? That's what it feels like when uk feminists talk about it, and it doesn't make sense to me. It's too vague. Of course there is still sexism and misogyny - and I'm very worried about the way things are going - but I can honestly say that the only times a man has ruled over me he has had to do it by force and as a criminal. In every area of my life I'm as independent of men as I want to be. I mean, that's why I'm so motivated to defend our rights. What we have is bloody brilliant and I'm grateful for it every day.

beastlyslumber · 21/12/2022 00:07

Sorry my comments are all totally off-topic! I will reign it in.

MangyInseam · 21/12/2022 02:50

I'd just note that the anthropological definition of patriarchy is pretty concrete, it doesn't mean the same kind of thing most feminists mean when they use the word.

Bosky · 21/12/2022 04:12

toomanytrees · 20/12/2022 22:09

Very interesting and thought provoking thread. One thing that struck me is Julie Bindel's tendency to mention right leaning people, religious people and far right people all in the same breath. It is a kind of mental bait and switch. I wonder if she has spent any time with conservative and religious people in social and work settings. She paints a stereotypical picture of them which is at odds with my experience. She asserts that these men want women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. What I observe is that these women want to stay home with their children when they are young. She asserts that these men think women are dirty, unclean. Where did she get this idea?

toomanytrees - "She asserts that these men want women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. What I observe is that these women want to stay home with their children when they are young. She asserts that these men think women are dirty, unclean. Where did she get this idea?"

"Barefoot and pregnant", sometimes "barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen", is an Americanism and fits with JB's repeated, seamless references to US politics, as if the UK is the 51st State, which really grates on me. I think that is why some of the things she says sound off-whack and don't ring true to us in the UK.

Having looked up the origin of the phrase, it could be worse if she were taking her cue from Spain!

How “Barefoot and Pregnant” Became a Dark American Joke
Katherine Jamieson - Slate - 22 Oct 2022

Extracts

"For the past century, “Keep ’em barefoot and pregnant!” has been an old boys’ club joke, a motto, a rallying cry, a wedding toast, a chain of California spas, and now, of course, a meme. Incendiary, tasteless, and provocative, it’s commonplace in American culture. But where did it actually come from?

As I cast about for an answer, I discovered a British proverb that seems to have inspired our own American variant. “Keep her well-shagged and poorly shod and she’ll not wander far,” and adaptations thereof, shows up on hundreds of internet conversation threads, social media posts, novels, and, poignantly, in this punk rock song about domestic violence. As Jonathon Green, author of Green’s Dictionary of Slang, noted in response to my Twitter inquiry about “well-shagged and poorly shod,” it’s almost always prefaced by “the old proverb,” but there’s no evidence of it predating the 20th century.

After I reached out to him with the same question, Tony Thorne, a writer and lexicographer who works as a language consultant at King’s College London, delved into the British databases but couldn’t find a definitive date of origin for the phrase either. However, he also believes that it’s likely the progenitor of our own: “I do suspect that the more vulgar, cold-blooded British version is older, but of course that sort of crude language circulated in more private settings and would have been too outrageous for national newspapers and other respectable sources in the U.K. to quote.” . . .

"In addition to the British “well-shagged” version, other iterations of “barefoot and pregnant” from around the world kept popping up in my research. Originally a tenet of the German Empire, the saying “Kinder, Küche, Kirche” (“Children, Kitchen, Church”) encapsulated the ideal role of the married woman. The slogan was picked up and repurposed by Adolf Hitler, who gave a speech in 1934 declaring that a German woman’s world “is her husband, her family, her children, and her home.”

Could this be why we see the first appearance of “barefoot and pregnant” in the U.S. just a few years later? Was the zeitgeist just ripe enough for an American version to emerge? Leila Rupp, professor of feminist studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and author of Mobilizing Women for War: German and American Propaganda, 1939-1945, agreed that the “connection totally makes sense in terms of timing.” She added, “There was little difference in the two countries on the question of where women belonged, so the idea of keeping women in the home, and pregnant to boot, would have made cultural sense in both contexts.”

I also came across references indicating very similar, or perhaps copycat, sayings in Russian and Polish. In Spain, the common proverb, “la mujer casada, la pierna quebrada y en casa” translates as “a married woman at home with a broken leg,” and is known to have been in use before 1583. Other gems include “mujer que no para en casa, cadena en el pie y las manos en la masa”: “A woman who doesn’t stay home, feet in chains and hands in the dough”; and “la mujer y la oveja, antes que anochezca en casa”: “Women and sheep at home before dark.”

I’m left wondering if this is some kind of worldwide, misogynistic mind-meld, or did all these sayings emerge at different times from one common wellspring? Our folksy American iteration, “Keep ’em barefoot and pregnant!” seems somewhat less upsetting than the mention of chains or the threat of broken limbs, but it’s clearly in the same spirit. One thing is evident: The scheme of keeping women tied to childbearing and housework, by whatever means necessary, is not only a time-tested source of humor and folk “wisdom,” it’s got global appeal.

In 1978, with the women’s movement in full swing, Robert Claiborne, the well-known scholar of the English language, optimistically declared “barefoot and pregnant” a “semi-proverbial recipe for marital happiness … [an example of] male callousness to women—now, happily, all but extinct.”

Full article:
slate.com/human-interest/2022/10/barefoot-and-pregnant-history-origin-of-saying.html

"She (Bindel) asserts that these men think women are dirty, unclean. Where did she get this idea?"

I wonder of this part and parcel of her references to the "religious right" (or words to that effect), again importing US political concepts and applying them to the UK?

There are biblical references to the "uncleanliness" of women, particularly around sex, menstruation and childbirth.

However, this author maintains that this is due to a misreading of the Hebrew that made it into the King James Version of the Bible:

WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR A WOMAN TO BE “UNCLEAN” IN THE BIBLE?
Heather Farrell
Extract

"When I was writing Walking with the Women of the New Testament I did some research about the Woman with an Issue of Blood. I was interested in knowing what she would have experienced and why she was considered to be unclean. The first thing I learned was that the Hebrew word that is translated as “unclean” in the KJV is the word tuma and it does not mean “dirty” or “contaminated”.

In fact, the word tuma is a complex word that can’t be directly translated into English. The simplest explanation is that it is the “energy of death” that fills the world. It comes from the word tamai which means “spiritually impure”, as in being separated from the presence of God. In fact, according to Jewish teachings tuma is what Adam and Eve brought into the world when they took of the fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil. Tuma is the loss of spiritual power that comes from being distanced from God and being able to die, both physically and spiritually.

A dead body is the highest form of tuma (“uncleanliness”) because as a living person, organized in the image of God, it has the greatest spiritual potential of all God’s creations. When a human
dies their spiritual potential departs and creates a “spiritual vacuum”, and their body becomes tuma. In a similar way, a woman who has given birth is also tuma because when she was pregnant she was filled with potential life and the spiritual power of creation. When her child is born that spiritual power departs and she becomes tuma.

In addition by bringing a new child into the world she has also brought more death, because each child who lives must also one day die.

In a sense each one of us “fell” on the day we were born, leaving the presence of God where we were pure and sinless. When we were born we become subject to the “natural” man and gained the ability to sin, thus distancing us further from God. Perhaps this is also the reason that a woman who gave birth to a girl was considered twice as “unclean” (see Leviticus 12) because each girl born meant more life and thus more death and sin…more tuma.

A man was also considered to be tuma after sexual intercourse because of the loss of potential life contained in each one of the sperm he spilled. In a similar way a woman was considered unclean after menstruation because each egg that she shed had the potential to become a new human life. Each egg inside a woman is filled with divine power, the power to activate and create human life. While the egg remains inside of her its spiritual potential is high. Yet once the egg passes through her body that spiritual potential leaves putting her in a state of tuma."

"Under the law of Moses each person– male, female, young, old– had to atone for their own sins, in order to bring them back into a state of purity or holiness. Yet we know that because of the atonement of Jesus Christ the law of Moses is no longer required. Christ fulfilled the law of Moses and enabled us to become clean from our sins, and from our tuma, by communing and accepting His divine sacrifice. Children are born pure, without the ability to sin (see Moroni 8). Each week we take the sacrament we are becoming clean– re-born– in much the same way that the mikvah made ancient Jews clean from their fallen state, their state of tuma."

". . . the (Jewish) menstrual laws are/were designed to help women recognize the incredible power that is housed within their bodies. I think too often in our culture we see menstruation as something routine, inconvenient, embarrassing, and even shameful. We don’t celebrate when a young woman begins her period or do anything to acknowledge the blood sacrifice that women give each month; a sacrifice that makes all human life on earth possible.

I think that if we as women really understood what incredible power we house within our bodies it would change the way we feel about ourselves. Just think about how incredible it is that every woman was born into the world with hundreds of thousands of eggs laying wait in her body. Then at puberty her power to transform those eggs into another human being becomes activated. From that point on every month, for the next thirty or forty years, she will shed her blood as a constant tribute to the continuation of life. Even if none of those eggs ever become a living human person, her body is a powerhouse of life, creating and sacrificing each month with continual hope. And that isn’t “dirty” or “unclean” in any way… just plain miraculous."

Full article:
www.womeninthescriptures.com/2016/02/what-does-it-mean-for-woman-to-be.html

I don't know if "Biblical uncleanliness" is what JB had in mind, or whether she is correct in asserting that "these men" consider women to be dirty and unclean, for this or any other reason.

It would be interesting to know the answers to both those questions.

Meanwhile, that article by Heather Farrell suggests that a lot of damage has been done to Christian women as a result of a mistranslation and lack of familiarity with Jewish concepts and rituals in the Old Testament.

beastlyslumber · 21/12/2022 10:15

MangyInseam · 21/12/2022 02:50

I'd just note that the anthropological definition of patriarchy is pretty concrete, it doesn't mean the same kind of thing most feminists mean when they use the word.

I think what most feminists mean when they use the word is too vague and nebulous to serve as a description of society or relationships. At least, so far no one has been able to give me a clear definition of what it is in relation to UK society. It's very clear what it is in Iran.

beastlyslumber · 21/12/2022 10:21

Bosky, there's a book called "Does God Hate Women?" that's been on my list to read for a long time. I keep putting it down because I'm pretty sure I already know the answer!

EndlessTea · 21/12/2022 14:17

I’m not in the mood for arguing the toss, so I am writing what is likely to be a long post and although there is no way I can say everything I want to or have to say I am going to leave it.

The word Patriarchy

Since I first noticed sexism, and misogyny in my life, before I think I had even read any feminist writings, I could see patterns of male dominance running through things. If I followed any line of questioning about what seemed unbalanced and unfair, weighted against women and girls, I would end up in the same place.

Where does this weighting against women and girls come from?
Where does this unfairness come from?
Where do these extra obstacles, inconveniences, expectations come from?
Where does the male as default come from?

The answers people gave me were either ‘it’s natural’ or ‘it’s traditional’ which is no explanation.

I think I learned the word ‘patriarchy’/patriarchal, not in a feminist context, it was probably anthropology, sociology or religious studies. I knew it to mean something highly structured and organised like the Pope, being the ‘father’ of the church and the reason all the priests were men, or something organic, like a baboon troop, where males compete with one another for dominance over the entire group and for social standing with one another, and the smaller, less powerful females, are harshly punished to fall in line with the male status quo- in it, females can improve their low social status through submissive behaviour and sexual appeal to the dominant males and by becoming mothers.

I can clearly see these patterns in human behaviour, and when I started reading feminist books and hanging out with feminists, it was obvious that words like ‘sexism’, ‘misogyny’ and ‘patriarchy/patriarchal’ were essential parts of the lexicon, which help to explain the phenomena of inequality I experienced in my life.

Sexism = inequality between women and men, stereotyping, male as default.
Misogyny = the feeling and notion that women are evil, dirty or worthless.
Patriarchy/patriarchal = the social structures which were created by and for men, to enable men to compete with one another for dominance and which women and girls are expected to fall in line with, even if it is aversive for us.

Feminism has managed to disrupt a lot of the structures of patriarchy, you have women in the clergy, women can vote, it mentions in the Tyranny of Structurelessness upthread that ‘boys clubs’ and informal organising to the exclusion of women was disrupted by feminists forcing men to formalise their processes, DV shelters opened where women could flee violent male domination in the home, lots of wins - female PMs. We had come so far, but there has been a lot of pushback from the sex industries and men who want to be able to control their families again. Basically people - both men and their handmaidens, wanting women set back to be subservient to men. This whole bullshit about people suddenly not knowing what a woman is, seems to squarely target all the feminist gains - DV shelters, quotas for female representation, etc, etc.

Anyway. I have for a long time used the word patriarchy/patriarchal in just this way and was never misunderstood, apart from by blokes playing devil’s advocate to amuse themselves.

In around 2013-ish, some contiguous phenomena occurred and I don’t know what the causal relationship might be, but one of those phenomena, was the sudden adoption of the term:

‘The Patriarchy’

Other phenomena included, a retro sensibility, men suddenly interested in crafts such as knitting and sewing, which are traditionally seen as feminine, female socialising being almost drag queen stereotyped, “stitch and bitch” clubs being created, 1950s full face make up, some of my gay male friends (who could betray flashes of seething misogyny) would roll their eyes and knowingly say “men, eh?”.

Suddenly I would see everywhere, cutesie, lovingly framed embroidery saying “Smash The Patriarchy”, small T Shirts for girls, “Smash the Patriarchy”.

It seemed to emerge from nowhere, without any feminist context, as though it was a hip and cool sounding thing to say. Reminiscent of people wearing Iron Maiden T shirts to look cool and fashionable, but probably never having ever heard the music.

It felt as though it was a little bit of retro playing-acting, shallow, camp fun. It made me smile, but I also felt uneasy.
This personification of patriarchal structures and norms, which are important for the well-being of women and girls to unpick, into ‘The Patriarchy’, to mean ‘The Man’. This notion suggests that there is some sort of conspiracy of men plotting to keep women down and it reduces the whole of the feminist analysis which has informed my life, to a crass, shallow, fairy tale.

I haven’t changed how I use the word, I’ve not noticed other feminists change how they use the word (perhaps 3rd wave feminists do? I don’t know, 3rd wave feminists made it very clear my feminist analysis wasn’t welcome anywhere near them). However, it seems that this camp fantasy of 1950s housewives stitching subversive messages about ‘The Patriarchy’ whilst waiting for their husbands to come home, has really taken hold.

Yes, there are theocratic patriarchal societies where women are outrageously and completely overtly oppressed. That doesn’t mean there isn’t some sexism, misogyny and patriarchy to unpick a little closer to home.

beastlyslumber · 21/12/2022 16:43

Patriarchy/patriarchal = the social structures which were created by and for men, to enable men to compete with one another for dominance and which women and girls are expected to fall in line with, even if it is aversive for us.

Thanks for giving your definition, tea. It's less vague than I was expecting! But it still doesn't convince me. Mainly, I don't agree that social structures were created by and for men. Certain institutions were created that way; largely they are now open to women and even to women's leadership. Is that what you mean? Or what do you mean by 'social structures'? Women may be expected to fall in line (I'd love an example though - I can't think of one) but they don't have to, because even though there is still sexism and misogyny, we don't live under male rule.

It's a bit like saying that Americans still live in slavery because racism still exists.

Yes, there are theocratic patriarchal societies where women are outrageously and completely overtly oppressed. That doesn’t mean there isn’t some sexism, misogyny and patriarchy to unpick a little closer to home.

I completely agree with this, except for the patriarchy bit. I don't agree that we live in a patriarchy. We live in an equal society where we are equal subjects under the law. That isn't to say there aren't many, many problems for women and girls in different areas of life and plenty of sexism and misogyny. I'd agree that some men do have patriarchal attitudes.

But I'm not oppressed and when I think about my life I can count on my fingers the times I've experienced oppression as a woman in the UK. I've certainly experienced sexism and misogyny, but I don't think that's the same thing. When I've encountered patriarchal attitudes in men I could just ignore them.

Did you listen to the Masih Alinejad podcast someone posted in the thread about Muslim girls and women's oppression? She was very clear that what they are fighting for is the kind of situation we have in the west. I guess you would say to her that Iran and the UK are both patriarchies - but that would elide her experience. Maybe you'd say it's a question of degree. But I'm not sure you can have 'some' patriarchy. You either live in a patriarchy or you don't.

Yes, I've noticed that 'smash the patriarchy' thing becoming popular. I think it's part of woke feminism. It's the idea that there's systemic but invisible oppression of females by males, that power relations between men and women are always about men oppressing women. Similar to CRT. There's no real definition to the word patriarchy in this case - it's just seen as a kind of miasma, the water we swim in.

EndlessTea · 21/12/2022 17:47

what do you mean by 'social structures'?

I mean it on the macro to the micro level, formalised or loose.

Here’s an easy one. The lap dancing club.

Men are able to use their excess income to circumvent female sex selection and to place themselves in the dominant position, able to pick and choose which woman to strip fully nude in a private room. Club owners are highly likely to also be men who make money from the drinks and money from fining the women of their earnings. The women are likely to need to strongly suppress their own feelings in order to be pleasing and get through it. The structure is how the rules of social interaction are created by and for men, and (usually young) women receive money, sometimes in far excess of what they may be able to earn elsewhere (often not, that’s another story) and so they play along, doing what men want, according to terms set by men.

The traditional wedding. A woman (her family footing the bill, like a dowry), is handed from her father to her husband, a symbol of exchanging ownership, she goes from taking her father’s name to her husband’s, lots of other dubious symbolism ensues until they recreate her false ‘kidnap’ of being carried over the threshold and going on a honeymoon. The structure is the ceremony and it’s symbolism.

I know these are random, I am just saying them as I think of them.

In many families, the brothers are not restrained from bullying and dominating their sisters, undermining their confidence for life, because “boys will be boys”. The ‘structure’ is a mindless inherited habit and a truism.

The ‘man cave’ - something every man needs apparently, because Virginia Woolf’s message about ‘A Room of One’s Own’, never seemed to cut through so there’s no female equivalent. The structure is the traditional sexist assumption men are more entitled to pursue interests other than home, family and work.

I can’t really be bothered to keep going on, because, if you don’t look at life through this lens - seeing a pattern between various phenomena, joining the dots between different aspects of male dominance and female subservience, then each example will be something else to quibble over. If you read the relationships threads, there are loads of things.

To me, this is just me, a feminist, doing feminist analysis and the word patriarchy/patriarchal is as essential as misogyny, the male gaze, bias, stereotyping, blah, blah, blah. It’s a necessary word and I think the insistence that it has no meaning other than it’s most extreme, unequivocal form is anti feminist. It is like saying left wing = communist totalitarianism. It is stripping an important term from use in such a way that makes feminist discussion about our own lives impossible.

EndlessTea · 21/12/2022 18:16

Iran and the UK are both patriarchies

< sigh >

Iran is a totalitarian theocracy and it’s religion is patriarchal.

UK is a democracy. We do have a monarchy and a church, but they are separate from the government. The monarchy, the church and the parliament were all created by and for men, in the UK, and although our society has flourished during the long reigns of three female monarchs, they only became monarchs by fluke. The systems and practices, the buildings, the rules, the expectations, etc, have all developed in times when women had far fewer rights and society was far more overtly patriarchal. Change is happening, slowly.

I am getting a bit impatient with this conflation of ‘totalitarian, theocratic, patriarchal regime’ and ‘patriarchy’.