Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?

[ILikeDungs]

By Unherd, a debate-style response to the purity spiral after Brighton. I do admire Helen Joyce and her ability to calmly and logically discuss the issues. Unherd have made it age restricted (because of all the fucks, I suppose!):

agree with you both

I think what a lot of people (including JB) mean when they say ‘I’m left wing’, is ‘I’m a good person’.

Yes, and I think that's where identity politics falls down. Because if you tie your whole identity up to a political stance, you are going to find it very hard to critique any political stance in any useful way.

The other thing I picked up was I think JB has been more hurt than she’d care to admit by being cast into the wilderness.

Yes. But I don't think JB has been cast into the wilderness, really. I was at the FSU review of the year last night and we voted on free speech heroes and zeroes. One of the nominations was for 'the women of terf island' - a long list which included both KJK and JB, among many others. (They came third, JKR was second, Elon Musk was first.) I think people really appreciate and acknowledge what JB does (even though I don't think she's really into free speech; in fact, I know she isn't.) She's known for her campaigning against VAWG. She doesn't have to worry that she doesn't have a place.

But looking at it from JB’s perspective, she’s being lauded by the FSU who she probably doesn’t give a shit about (I agree with you that she’s no advocate of free speech in reality), but is persona non grata at the guardian and in weird left wing circles that we’ve probably never heard of and don’t give a shit about, but mean a lot to JB. I expect that cuts deep

I don't think JB has been cast into the wilderness

I think it is more about lesbian culture declining. Young lesbians are calling themselves queer, non-binary or gay, slotting themselves into male gay culture and social analysis. Women-only clubs and bars and everything have declined.

JB is a shero to certain lesbians, because she promotes lesbianism and will come out and baldly say - being a lesbian is a superior choice for women, women are selling themselves short, missing out, by shacking up with men.

That position used to get much more traction within feminism than it does now. I think that is what the pain is about.

Ah, yes. You're both right, I think. I missed the point there!

To go all psychological about it - I think what gets us out of bed in the morning itching to get going, is a mission that we are in total alignment with, from our base animal self, to our higher intellect.

For JB, she fancies women, believes women would all be happier if they were lesbians, feels a moral duty to rescue lesbians forced into heterosexuality by patriarchal systemic sexism and misogyny, has a class analysis about how male violence oppresses and maintains the oppression of women by men, feels a duty to rescue all women and girls from violent men.

When a feminist campaign crystallises and aligns her motivations - she’ll light up and have undoubtedly impressive energy and determination.

If it doesn’t light her up (as with anyone) she is “meh” about it.

KJK has different motivations - she is a mother and wants to protect her children, she also feels a duty to speak the truth and make sure the truth is spoken, currently lies are being told and the truth is being suppressed in such a way that children are being harmed. She feels a duty to protect children and preserve our right to tell the truth.

KJK is similarly lit up by this, impressively motivated, and is pretty “meh” about, for example, ending MVAWG as her reason to jump out of bed.

The thing is, KJK also goes on about how much she adores her husband and actively challenges the notion that women are better off without men, etc, and this stance completely disrupts JBs whole raison d’etre. So JB could never get enthused about what she does. In fact, I can imagine them both being very eye-rolly about what the other has to say.

Although these differences explain why they are unlikely to get on board with one-another’s campaigning, it doesn’t really explain why JB is such a twat about it.

I think it is probably just down to a personality thing.

I think you're spot on Endless!
(Probably because I love getting 'all psychological' about stuff. I think it's a useful lens as I believe our psychology is at the root of all our motivations - individually and collectively)

You've also articulated for me why I relate so well to KJK - after getting past any baulking that came from my own people pleasing/female socialisation.
(And I can relate to aspects of JB' motivation too)
As a personal example of personal psychological motivation; I was significantly lied to as a child. Your post here has clarified my particular impassioned route into the current debate:
I felt protective of children and enraged that I might personally be called to lie to them about reality; and to collude with a culture-wide lie to children.
I think all of us who feel strongly on this issue, or actively campaign in it, can't not come to it from some personal, psychological experientially meaningful angle on it.

Recognising both our own and others motivations as valid is really important.
The truth and power of the disparate group coming together for a common cause, despite individual motivations and differences is archetyped well for us in film, TV and books. (Hence my LoTR analogy earlier) We all recognise this.

Thanks for articulating this so well Endless

Interesting post. Very insightful. Their emotional driver is different.

And that's probably true for many, many women. Which is why, sometimes, there's absolutely no logic to the disagreements. Because emotion isn't always based on logic.

It's just a feeling someone has, an attitude, shades and hues.

Food for thought.

EndlessTea You've missed out all of JB's motivations about investigating the situations than women 'at the bottom' are forced into, and amplifying their voices.

The prostituted, the trafficked, the sexually exploited, the mothers of sexually exploited girls, survivors of domestic violence and abuse, women and girls trapped in poverty, the murdered, the stalked, those imprisoned for killing their violent partners and so on.

After the protests outside Portsmouth's Filia conference, she was the only journalist who wrote about how the TAs had prevented the council funding grass roots projects for local working class girls, rather than the pictures of dicks on the pavement outside.

Persuading straight women to become gay? Not so much.

The prostituted, the trafficked, the sexually exploited, the mothers of sexually exploited girls, survivors of domestic violence and abuse, women and girls trapped in poverty, the murdered, the stalked, those imprisoned for killing their violent partners and so on.

All of these women fit squarely in the middle.

JB was in the wilderness for decades. It's very recently with the ascent of gender ideology that she's been accepted into parts of the mainstream.

She was writing and (trying to talk, 'cos deplatforming) about these issues more than ten years ago and was portrayed by people of all political persuasions and many feminists as a bigoted extremist.

I agree that she's been hurt by over 20 years of abuse and death threats, possibly more than she can cope with acknowledging tbh, in a context where there were very few others sympathetic to her causes.

The middle of what?

Sorry ShinyRed - I am not familiar with what she has specifically got behind regarding women trapped in poverty, where it hasn’t been in some way related to MVAWG.

The middle of what?

Drawing dicks outside a feminist conference, is consistent with intrusive male sexuality.

Prostitution is too.

DV - male violence.

It is about getting women away from men for their own good.

I am somewhere between the two positions. I think KJK doesn’t recognise the element of luck that has meant her husband didn’t turn out to be a nightmare. I don’t think she has the patience to appreciate the machinations of gaslighting and how it can actually change a person’s relationship with reality. But it’s a small criticism.

Haven't rtft but why should Terfs join up with the right? If Terfs they do then I definitely would not count myself as one (am in two minds at the moment). It discounts anything they have to say, to me. I hate the right-wing with a passion. I think they would lose a lot of women's support that way.

‘I haven’t read the thread or watched the video, but here’s my opinion!! It’s sure to be relevant, insightful and move the conversation along!!!’

Yes, I agree about male violence.

But you said those groups of women were squarely in the middle. I asked middle of what?

You know, I'm not sure that's true. I think she knows it but she hasn't lived it, so maybe that's the difference. And actually I don't think JB has lived it, either. They are both very black and white in their thinking (which I think is a good thing when it comes to the sort of work they do) and both like a dog with a bone for their respective causes.

In fact, I can imagine them both being very eye-rolly about what the other has to say.

KJK has spoken many times about how much she admires and respects JB and thinks her work is amazing. JB has slagged KJK off and can't help having a go at her every time the opportunity arises!

Maybe they're just too alike.

It's worth watching the video, there were some very interesting points made by both speakers.

Gosh what on earth have we been doing on this thread for the last 11 pages! Certainly nothing worth reading, that's for sure!

I agree! Lots of food for thought there - thank you EndlessTea !

Ah, I see the problem.

I'm pressing quote on my phone but it's not doing so. Works on laptop though.

Sorry, I can see what I thought were reply or quote posts just look like spam.

KJK is definitely gracious and respectful. I think the eye-rolling would be done privately- around any analysis which lays the blame solely on men.

I think JB likes a bit of drama though. I don’t believe all her pops at KJK are rooted in anything principled in any way.