Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?

[ILikeDungs]

By Unherd, a debate-style response to the purity spiral after Brighton. I do admire Helen Joyce and her ability to calmly and logically discuss the issues. Unherd have made it age restricted (because of all the fucks, I suppose!):

Yes other women and groups. But we were talking about JB.

My point was in response to LangClegsInSpace's comment about JB's attitude to mothers and motherhood and I said these women are an untapped resource. Which, if I understand you correctly, you say JB has no interest in garnering support from.

It's an explanation of why there's not more support. If you don't ask for it, you won't get it.

Yes ^Shinyredbicycle*. Click on the three dots at the bottom of the comment you're responding to and press quote.

Yet, shinyredbicycle, when JB has legal evidence of harassment from one of her own crowd and at least six reports, what does she do? Why, she says she believes privately but says nothing publicly and the women who spoke out are branded liars by some very influential self-identified feminists. To this day, the legals and reports sit in a folder. Some people are very good at building a brand and credit must go to her for that. As a feminist concerned with abuse? My only response is black, hysterical laughter given who looked the other way when it was reputationally convenient to do so.

Identity politics isn’t really about being able to identify as something you’re not - that is the added confusion of ‘trans’ ideas/Queer Theory. When I think of identity politics, it is more about navel-gazing and narrowing down who you are according to all the sub-classifications. Like in the 80s when people used to take the piss out of lefties announcing themselves as ‘a disabled Black lesbian’ or whatever. With ‘trans’ ideas, a straight, able-bodied, white man can now ‘identify as’ a disabled Black lesbian. It’s ‘trans’ identity politics.

I think the confusion we’re getting in this thread is the conflation of the ideas of ‘classification’ and ‘grouping’. With ‘classes’ you are thinking “how are we going to slice things into smaller parts so we can see how it works?”, with ‘groups’, you are thinking ‘how are these individual elements/people, working together and interacting as one group?’.

So you can stand on the corner of the street and classify people by height as they walk by, and classify people as ‘below 5’2, 5’2-5’10” and above 5’10’ - although there maybe some commonalities about the way these three classes navigate the public space, they can’t be meaningfully ‘grouped’ together, because they don’t interact or work together, they are just the way you decided to slice the pie when you were gathering your stats.

So you can analyse the commonalities of, say, ‘white men’, but it will only give you the broadest, sweeping generalisations to work with. A first generation Lithuanian man in Lewisham can’t be meaningfully grouped with King Charles, since they live and more in entirely different social eco systems.

*live and move

WPUK are like some sort of bogeyperson on MN. Portrayed as either completely ineffective and having achieved nothing or more powerful than the leading Christian rights organisation in the world (still stunned at that one, tbh).

As I say, I've been to some WPUK meetings and they were well-attended. There were protests outside all the meetings I went to, lots of noise-making and men in masks. I thought the women who spoke were brave and it was a powerful experience for those who attended.

So I'd never say they're completely ineffective. My issue with WPUK (and I obviously can't speak for anyone but myself, but this would also be my general impression of others' issues) is the way that they treated KJK, and their divisive identity politics.

I appreciate that you think the ADF are some kind of hugely powerful organisation in the UK but I've never seen them written about in a mainstream newspaper, never seen them on television, never heard about them on social media. Helen Joyce in the debate discusses how small and insignificant their UK branch is. We live in a secular country and we just don't have the religious right here in the way they do in the states.

I'm not a "campaigning feminist" and no, I haven't followed events in Northern Ireland. Not embarrassed about that - why would I be? I'm not in NI. Until recently I was based in Scotland, and there's enough going on there to keep me occupied. There's only so many hours in the day.

More embarrassed about my typo. Obviously meant 'had' not 'hear'.

Apologies! I see what you mean.

I'm not a "campaigning feminist"

Ah, just another FWR keyboard warrior then.

And the very last thing that 'terfs uniting with the right' will achieve is winning over Labour, I think it's fair to say. On the contrary, it would make it even easier for every misogynist out there to point the finger and label anything pro-women or pro-reality as 'far right'.

I mean, it sounds like you're admitting that Labour is full of misogynists. In which case, we're not going to win them over at all. Oh and idiots who can't tell the difference between 'right' and 'far right'.

I just find this line of argument weird. If women get a wider audience by talking to or "working with" the right, then more people understand what's at stake and start asking the right questions. This means that Labour, if they want to win votes, have to understand the issues and be able to answer the questions everyone is asking. If they can do that in a satisfactory way, they'll win votes.

They're not going to win votes by calling people fascists for understanding what a woman is. So it would be a stupid, self-destructive tactic.

Helen Joyce in the debate discusses how small and insignificant their (ADF) UK branch is.

Of course HJ downplays their significance, her partner at Sex Matters has been working with them.

I'm not a feminist or an activist. I have a job and a family. I go to meetings and events when I can. Sign petitions. Donate money to fundraisers and buy merch to support the campaigns. Talk to people about my opinions. Leave stickers around the place.

I'd say that's reasonable. Do you think I should give up my job and become a full time activist? Or don't you agree that it's the case that a movement is largely made up of people just like me, who do our bit when we can, who can be counted upon to swell the numbers of a protest, or lend our voice to a campaign?

Why do you find it necessary to denigrate the efforts of women in this campaign? What do you do that makes you so superior @Dicedcarrot ?

beastlyslumber worth remembering there are plenty of people who are only here to try and discourage women. Slurs, sneers, and snidey bullshit are generally safely ignored. 😊

Do you have to be a "campaigning feminist" in order to make a difference? I think that's quite shortsighted.

I have raised objections to TRA ideology at my work which has "marked my card". I have spoken to our school about resources. I have raised awareness amongst friends and fellow parents. I have contributed to many, many fighting funds over the last 5 years.

And that's just from a "TERF" perspective, I've done far more for accessibility over the years as well - actual tangible differences like ramps and changing spaces. In all this I have focused on practical changes I can make and stayed away from political infighting. But apparently that's sneerworthy because like the PP I'm not a "campaigning feminist" but just someone on MN trying to make a difference in her own way without pledging allegiance to some grand idea.

I know. But I really want to know what @Dicedcarrot does for women. I'd like to know what a "campaigning feminist" is up to.

Also wanted women reading here to know that you don't have to put yourself on the frontline to be of value to the fight for women's rights. Everyone's voice is important.

For sure.

Also, I think defining someone as a ‘campaigning feminist’ is a bit off. A feminist may suddenly find herself campaigning by accident - trying to bring about a change at work or in her kids school, or trying to raise awareness in her local area, she didn’t set out to be so, it just happened to be the thing she needed to do. Or, she might have been involved in campaigning and needs to take a break.

I see the movement a bit like the Spartan war tactics, of there being a line at the front, and if one falls, someone steps in from behind and fills the gap. So being aware, supportive and ready to help, step in, is enough to be part of the campaigning for the majority of feminists. You don’t all need to be leading the charge at once. There’s more longevity and resilience built in that way.

I agree, tea. That's a good image.

Also, any woman could be put on the spot at any moment. You could get cancelled, lose your job, find yourself needing to protect a daughter or a child. I think a lot of women are fully conscious that there could come a moment when they will be forced to engage beyond what they already do, and have mentally prepared themselves. I know I've thought a lot about what I'll do if I lose my job over this, what I'll do if I'm told I need to use pronouns, what I'd do if a child I care for falls prey to this ideology.

All women are in this. Not just left-wing women, not just feminists, not just campaigners who've been campaigning for years. All of us. That means right-wing women, non-feminists, those without any political affiliation. And actually, I think men are in it, too. Women are targeted more often and more brutally, but men are in it too.

I think that's another reason why it's so important we can't keep women's rights campaigns just to the left, or just in the left-wing media. We have to talk to everyone, because it affects everyone.

Also begs the question of what is meant by 'campaigning'. Is that signing petitions, talking to friends, writing letters to MPs, attending events, finding evidence, doing volunteer work for various groups, donating to funds, sharing information, joining local groups etc?

Or is there a more specific meaning? Or did Dicedcarrot just want to make women feel bad for doing it wrong/not doing enough?

I found that comment a bit blokey tbh.

About being keyboard warriors

Or did Dicedcarrot just want to make women feel bad for doing it wrong/not doing enough?

I'm sure @Dicedcarrot will be back any moment to explain the superior work they do for women's rights and why they are in a position to shit on women in FWR.

I think what a lot of people (including JB) mean when they say ‘I’m left wing’, is ‘I’m a good person’.

what I found interesting in the debate was HJ’s ability and willingness to accept that members of the ADF think they’re good people too. They genuinely think they’re saving people from going to hell. I don’t think JB showed that ability to walk a mile in another’s shoes

I admire the fact that she has chosen to focus on women at the bottom of the pile and I think she has done amazing things. I also think she’s self righteous and bloody awkward. People who get shit done often are

there was only one person on that stage I wanted to go for a drink and a chat with, and it wasn’t JB (or the woeful MC!)

the surest way to get things done is by building common consensus, that’s the HJ way

All I know is that in a few years' time, when we've won our rights back, I won't have to be ashamed of what I did or how I conducted myself.

I won't have to live with the thought that I tried to silence women, or bitched about women because of their hair or their houses, or tried to derail discussions about women's rights, or told lies to try and win arguments. I'll be able to say, yes, I stickered and went to rallies and meetings, I wrote to my MSPs and MPs, I stood outside parliament and wore a t-shirt that made me a target for far-left thugs. I spent time with other women trying to understand the issues and work out how to move forward.

I'm basically a suffragette. We all are, who do this. You don't have to throw yourself under a horse to be part of this.

The other thing I picked up was I think JB has been more hurt than she’d care to admit by being cast into the wilderness. She clearly takes very personally the fact that feminists are now often characterised on twitter as right wing and strongly resents the actions of other women that she sees as leading to that

I also agree with HJ that there’s much misogyny in this, but it’s also about power. And I think that might be the bit that pisses me off the most

the idea that there are institutions that expect to be able to look me in the eye and force me to say that men are women. They literally want to control my thinking. I’m not ok with that

so this fight isn’t for feminists only. It’s for everyone who fancies being free range inside their own head