Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?

[ILikeDungs]

By Unherd, a debate-style response to the purity spiral after Brighton. I do admire Helen Joyce and her ability to calmly and logically discuss the issues. Unherd have made it age restricted (because of all the fucks, I suppose!):

Thanks. Good to see respectful discussion space set up.

I watched 2 minutes so far:

Unfortunate that the presenter kicks off with misinformation about Kellie Jay Keen's event (she didn't 'allow' Hearts of Oak to film, they just turned up and did so)

And afair, HoO isn't led by Tommy Robinson at all. I don't know much about them, and don't care to, but it would be good to have misinformation debunked.

Helen Joyce immediately put the presenter right on that bit of misinformation, @ArabellaScott !

The debate was great, I watched it live.

I also liked the audience reaction when the presenter used the 'cis' word!

It felt ultimately a bit pointless and frustrating because the answer, and hence the votes, were largely determined by the interpretation of "work with" and "right".

I'd probably answer "no", but then I also wouldn't say that KJK works with the right. Certainly not as much as Bindel does, actually doing paid work for right-wing newspapers.

The closest I've ever seen is the thing where she worked with WoLF while in the US, while WoLF who were working with (in a real sense) the Heritage Foundation ("Hands across the Aisle"), so kind of one step removed, and she has given some interviews to a few pretty far-right types in the past. (She's more cautious about that now). But again, she's not actually arranged a full tour with them and said "but it's okay because it was a debate". The links are far more tenuous than Bindel's.

What KJK refuses to do, and what leads her to be shunned and denounced, is that she refuses to shun or denounce people based on anything other than this issue. Especially women.

Bindel sees herself as part of a broader feminist philosophy and political movement (tribe), and that's a higher priority for her than this particular fight. But KJK is single-issue.

I can see where Bindel is coming from, and ranking issues differently is fine, but I think she's utterly hypocritical about selective redefinition of "work with". It's one of those irregularly declined verbs. And Helen was right to point out the slipperiness of that, along with "right".

And afair, HoO isn't led by Tommy Robinson at all.

There's an association - he was certainly at a launch event, but so were a bunch of other people. I don't know how directly involved he actually is. He may not be.

As a mirror image counterpoint, there were a bunch of people at LGB Alliance's launch event, like Allison Bailey, who people assume are directly involved, but aren't.

He can at least be accurately said to be a high-profile supporter, like Bailey is of LGBA.

Glad HJ corrected the presenter. And thanks for clarification re HoO. That sounds plausible.

I come over all pedantic when clear untruths are thrown out!

I loved the formal 'debate' format. Yes, as @NecessaryScene has pointed out, teasing out the definition of 'right' was more enlightening than the actual motion.

But, our side is debating! We are more than happy to debate! More debate, please. 'No Debate' is ended.

'those of us who care about poverty and racism' - bit disingenuous there, from Julie Bindel.

And afair, HoO isn't led by Tommy Robinson at all.

There's an association - he was certainly at a launch event, but so were a bunch of other people. I don't know how directly involved he actually is. He may not be.

HoO was launched by Tommy Robinson and Carl Benjamin (KJK was on his podcast last week)

Watching way too much youtube today. Saw this as well, it's new, and KJK covers the issue in the debate a bit. "I don't do guilt by association and I don't accuse other people of guilt by association. I don't do denouncing. I don't do disassociating my self from people... The whole reason is to let women speak, not let them speak and then chastise them and make them feel really bad and tell them they're wrong".

Boyce called the attacks 'propriety that has been weaponised'.

That's a wiki article, that references a Vice article. But yes, there's a picture in the Vice article that seems to show Robinson on a video screen at the launch. (So he seems to have been there virtually). It's quite possible he's involved - still seems slightly vague, tbh.

Fun fact: Did you know the founder of Vice is a Proud Boy?

www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/06/the-secret-history-of-gavin-mcinnes

Unite?

Even the title of the debate suggest agreeing on one issue is the same as being united. TERF's and the right agree on women's sex based rights, and oppose irreversible treatment for gender questioning children. We approach the issue from different perspectives and I'm not even sure that there is agreement on desirable solutions. Just because the right agree with me on one thing it doesn't mean we're united.

The left, which includes TRA's and Julie Bindle, like to label and put people in boxes for the purposes of silencing and shaming. I no longer care how such blinkered people refer to me. If they can't debate the "real" issue in good faith rather than trying to manufacture a good vs evil scenario then they are not worthy of my time and attention.

The real issue is that people like Julie still think women should support the left even though they are crapping on women from a great height and the biggest loser's will be the most vulnerable women. The right are barely any better but are holding the line on legislative change which buys us time. Yes, it's crumbs but rather that than shit sandwich.

Sophie Corcoran said Hearts of Oak were not invited but were there (Brighton), they asked to film, Posie said ok.

mobile.twitter.com/sophielouisecc/status/1598766713042046993

It wasn't an invitation type event. I'd love to see what stopping people filming at a public open air event looks like.

Alf up a tree has a 45 min video on YouTube showing exactly what happened. If I recall correctly KJK has an interaction of mere seconds with a woman who was later thought to be with HoO but other than that she didn't speak to them at all and there was nothing to identify who they were filming on behalf of.

They peacefully filmed and left, pure evil.

@ILikeDungs I haven’t watched this video of KJK but I agree with her. I absolutely hate the fact that a few women raise their voices and they get shamed for doing so. I am sick of women being held to standards that men are not. Women are always expected to be moral, polite, reasonable and not hurt anyone’s feelings - in other words, put everyone’s needs before our own. So even when they are telling us that we don’t even exist as a material reality women still are supposed to object in a politically correct way.

Well FUCK THAT.

Great debate, I do agree with Bindel on some things and Joyce on others. It's a complex situation and very much always around the context. Agree with Helen it's less of a left right situation and more of an institutional issue. I can also see why Bindel wants to maintain boundaries.,

It's great to see a good faith debate on this at last.

My impression is that JB's nose has been put out of joint, that she has taken certain things that KJK has said very personally. There was an air of 'I didn't get where I am today ...' about her arguments. And while I admire her work tremendously, the particular examples she used were both failures.

She talked about the fight against pornography and how she was not prepared to join forces with the religious right against it because they wanted to ban it for different reasons. That's great for JB's peace of mind, and I am very grateful for her clear analysis of the sex industry. But porn is worse than ever, so was that a successful strategy or not?

She talked about the grooming gangs and what happened, and she has done some really excellent work to expose what was going on, but ultimately, the narrative would not have been very different if someone else had done that work. It just needed exposing. There was a race angle, the police wanted to avoid a race row, the far right latched on and made hay. JB didn't manage to prevent that, I don't think anyone else could have prevented it either.

My impression of HJ is that she is first and foremost a pragmatist and she strives not to take things personally. I agree with her that universal human rights come first.

My politics are more aligned with JB but I think HJ has the best way forward.

Thanks for this @ILikeDungs

Colour me shocked.

Or not.

Bindle is the kind of person who seems to really think that anyone who is on the right doesn't care about racism, presumably even those who aren't actually white.

I think increasingly the left thinks the way forward politically is forcing change, often through mechanisms like the courts, or rights type tribunals.

They aren't interested in actually convincing people in the population overall. They don't see a need for a democratic consensus.

This seems to work better in places where the courts have more power over Parliament, It seems a more limited strategy in the UK as a whole, but even in the former kinds of places I'd suggest that it's a foolish way to proceed.

Bindel and her cronies always come across as basically a bit schoolgirl bully jel of KJK snobs. . Seen it too many times at this point. There is something pathetic about it.

It was an interesting debate with some excellent points made by both women.

Julie's final point, that it is a tactical disaster to campaign around the harms of gender ideology without locating it in broader feminist concerns like male violence, child sexual abuse, FGM, prostitution, pornography made a lot of sense to me.

I'm waiting for someone, anyone, who can adequately explain to me what
" far right " actually is/means, precisely!
I am sick and tired of seeing the term being thrown around by middle class, snobs, that use the term as a cover for spouting their anti working class bigotry, because accusing people of being far right gives them an excuse to look down their noses at people they think are beneath them, are inferior and whose views shouldn't be listened to and can be dismissed immediately.
If anyone thinks there's no one like that using these boards, let alone in the wider context of terfery, then they have another think coming! There's one or two posters here that positively drip with it!
Some people ought to be reminded, frequently, that it's the left and far left that got us in to this mess, so the middle class snobs need to think on and stop being so judgemental, because you have no right to judge anyone!

As for J. Bindel, who she, precisely?! ( Yes, i know who she is but the general population??? not so much, i'd bet. )
What exactly is she doing to bring all this to the attention of people on the street?! I don't see her advertising any speakers corners anywhere of the sort KJK organises.
I may not know what a Bindel is but i sure as hell know what a KJK is!

@EpicChaos who is Julie Bindel?
Everyone knows who Julie Bindel is . Or at least they know of what Julie Bindel has been behind . The women that Bindel has helped . She has been around for donkeys years helping women who for some reason have ended up in prison with murder convictions after years of abuse. Julie is really well known. In many different communities. KJK not so much.

Maya Forstater has a short summary.

twitter.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1601294488575840256

On Helen Joyce:

"She made the case for people with different principles, be they based on feminism, freedom of speech, religion, science, concern for human rights or concern to protect children, to work together against reality-denial."

Sounds sensible to me.

I'm not sure that's possible, given the wildly different understandings of what reality is among those groups and the differences in power between them.

What Julie said about the house being on fire for a long time, way before the gender debate became mainstream, rang very true to me.

Not in terms of 'where were you then?' at all though. More that the fire has really caught hold and that opposing gender ideology, sexism, misogyny and all their manifestations can't affectively be done from one side or a single issue approach.

Both women made some great points.

Bindels point about house being on fire long term also resonated with me and I think she is concerned that if this becomes a single issue the other issues continued to be ignored. The GI is a culmination and off shoot if all the others and another symptom of the wider disease of misogyny.

At the same time it does also affect males, young boys, as well as girls which makes it more of a general medical and safeguarding issue. Which is why all groups should be concerned about this.

Of course they then become part of the problem that affects all women and girls hence the firm roots in feminism.