Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel: Should TERFs unite with the Right?

[ILikeDungs]

By Unherd, a debate-style response to the purity spiral after Brighton. I do admire Helen Joyce and her ability to calmly and logically discuss the issues. Unherd have made it age restricted (because of all the fucks, I suppose!):

I've not felt the same way about Julie Bindel since I saw her make a really unpleasant suggestion on Twitter about Posie Parker. It was several years ago and I'm not going to repeat it - never seen it discussed on here - and I say 'suggestion', not allegation because JB didn't have a scrap of evidence and she knew it. I know we're all only human and capable of good and bad behaviour but that was so out of order I've never been able to shake it off.

I’m 100% with KJK:
I don't do guilt by association and I don't accuse other people of guilt by association. I don't do denouncing. I don't do disassociating my self from people... The whole reason is to let women speak, not let them speak and then chastise them and make them feel really bad and tell them they're wrong".

The Trans/Men’s Rights attack on women’s rights is too important for us to waste time on side issues.

It's difficult, as HJ said in the interview all our ideas are deeply felt. It's not tribalism. For those of you on the pp side of this. Can I ask if you would be prepared to work with transwomen like Debbie Hayton who share a goal (science, rationality, resisting self id) but who are not gender critical. If not then you must understand why people like wpuk and jb want to set their own boundaries.

I've had to stop watching as I need to go out in a little while. But I just listened to JB do a whole impassioned takedown of Tommy Robinson, saying that it disgusts her when feminists praise TR and say that the grooming gangs wouldn't have been exposed without him etc.

I didn't disagree with what she said about TR but I was wondering which feminists are publicly praising him and crediting him with bringing grooming gangs to light?

It also struck me, when JB said that this claim was an insult personally to her, that part of this campaign against KJK is because JB thinks she was there first. In her opening comments she talked about how it was her and leftist feminists who brought the issue of gender ideology to light in the first place, so the campaign belongs to the left. I think JB thinks that women like Helen, Maya, Kellie-Jay etc are getting credit for work that JB thinks she should be getting the credit for.

If not then you must understand why people like wpuk and jb want to set their own boundaries.

The problem is their insistence on setting other people's boundaries, and turning fire on those who do not set them "correctly".

To be honest, I probably wouldn't "work with" DH because I don't think we do share a common goal. DH's goal seems to me to be DH's ability to cosplay as a woman. That is the opposite of what my goals are. I'd also be concerned about the silencing of the trans widows.

But the thing is, I don't say JB must work with people she doesn't want to work with. I just think that we all need to accept that "guilt by association" isn't a thing, and stop trying to destroy others for making different choices. I have no problem with WPUK et al setting their own boundaries. What I do have a problem with is them trying to set the boundaries for others and then attacking them for not complying.

This. I can’t repeat it often enough. We are under very serious attack, and must not waste our (and our allies’) energy in bickering with each other.

I spent enough time around left and anti-Establishment groups in the 1970s to see strength and energy that could have made great achievements , all squandered on infighting. The Establishment was never in danger!

See i don't think that is what wpuk are doing. They are saying if you don't denounce x I can't work with you. And this is a pity. I've seen the sane thing on the other side with lgba being attacked for platforming Hayton

But what struck me is that wpuk jb, folia sfw are all fighting slightly different wars

Do LGBA work with DH? I thought it was WPUK who did.

It's fine for groups to make their own decisions. But stop all the bloody denouncing and cancelling of the women doing something else.

What about obstetric violence, physical and mental, vaginal 'meshes', other procedures being done to women without informed consent?

Yes, and I can see why she thinks that tbh.

Not saying that I agree with her btw, but she was out on her own fighting this for a long time. Painted as a bigot by the right, left, most feminists, pretty much everyone.

As a side issue, after MF saying at Filia, an explicitly feminist and anti-capitalist conference, that SM isn't a feminist organisation and Helen Joyce saying very clearly that her politics have never been left-wing, I think it speaks volumes about WPUk's generosity and commitment to working with other groups that MF and HJ have been platformed/headlined/asked to chair their events several times.

As a side issue, after MF saying at Filia, an explicitly feminist and anti-capitalist conference, that SM isn't a feminist organisation and Helen Joyce saying very clearly that her politics have never been left-wing, I think it speaks volumes about WPUk's generosity and commitment to working with other groups that MF and HJ have been platformed/headlined/asked to chair their events several times.

Not really a side issue, you have shown the same bias against certain groups that JB is showing. Your comment about MF and HJ is just like saying "they aren't like us and some of them even admit they aren't on the left!! so we have been super cool to let them play with us."

Sex Matters is doing amazing work with tremendous energy. They do not have to label themselves a feminist organisation to do what they do, all of which greatly benefits all women.

From their website:
We champion clarity about sex – in language, rules, laws, policies and culture, as a means to underpin everybody’s human rights.

We support people to be clear about what sex means and when it matters in their own institutions, and to resist pressure towards ambiguity and dishonesty about sex, and to help them understand the laws that protect them.

We hold organisations to account for communicating and implementing clear policies, making it easier for them to do the right thing.

We campaign for laws, policies and practices that are clear about sex, and that enable people to live as they choose in relation to gender expression and beliefs about gender identity.

We work with others campaigning on this issue to amplify their work and enable more people to get involved.

"We have a singular mission: to re-establish that sex matters in rules, laws, policies, language and culture."

Is there anything here that is wrongthink, and should be shunned? Any reason why they should not be platformed/headlined/asked to chair events?

It's not about anyone 'admitting' that they're not on the left.

It's about people clarifying their political positions, like both Julie Bindel and Helen Joyce did during the discussion.

WPUK have left-wing politics from working within the TU movement for years, yet they have had no problem platforming and working with Maya Forester and Helen Joyce who don't.

I haven't suggested that these women shouldn't be platformed/headlined or asked to chair, rather that it's testament to WPUK's generosity and clarify of position, that they are clear what their political lines are but can work in a pluralist way.

As Helen Joyce advocated for during the discussion actually.

DH spoke at a couple of their events about the GRA in 2018.

Nothing since then.

I saw that as quite strategic at the time, as it was useful to be able evidence that not all trans identified people were in favour of GRA reform.

WPUK have left-wing politics from working within the TU movement for years, yet they have had no problem platforming and working with Maya Forester and Helen Joyce who don't.

I probably don't understand the nuances at play, I admit. I moved to the UK as an adult and was never terribly interested in politics to begin with. I just can't get my head around WPUK being considered generous for "allowing" MF and HJ to join in. Surely they should welcome them with arms wide, and wine!

I think you've got the nuances correct, OP.

They did and do.

I meant generous as in not spurning individuals whose broader politics don't align with theirs.

As opposed to the inward looking meanies MN often seems to think they are.

I think this is rewriting history somewhat. After Helen and Maya's appearance in Brighton, WPUK women immediately laid into them on twitter for not denouncing the right wing, and they both explained then that their politics were on the right.

So don't give credit where it's not due.
WPUKs assumption that everyone must be on the left or ignorant racist scum is literally the problem.

It must be disappointing to now accept that these two women with the most legal success and mainstream credibility are conservative.

Julie has very little non left credibility, her Spectator articles are laughed at for their incomprehensible oppression and patriarchy arguments. The left can't own this issue.

Are we talking about the same WPUK?

I've just looked back as far as I can on their Twitter feed and can't see anything there laying into either Maya or Helen.

Nothing about anyone being 'scum' either.

Given that Helen used to work for The Economist and Maya's professional background, I don't think anyone would have thought they were left wing at any point during this debate.

If you want to talk about legal success, Allison Bailey has done pretty well, but I don't know where she stand politically, other than obvs anti-racist, feminist and anti-homophobic.

And the halting of the GRA reforms were pretty important too.

I'm making it all up shiny. Nothing happened. That's why this debate was organised. Because nothing happened.

We've had years of this shit shiny.

I think you are either making up or getting confused about WPUK's part in this debate, yes.

I think WPUK cancelled Posie from one of their events and called her a racist. And then more recently, I understand, there was a whole series of posts and tweets about how much they hate her.

Helen and Maya are way more successful and have made way more impact from WPUK. It's more a case of them platforming WPUK than the other way around.

Ultimately I don't think JB has a problem with Helen or Maya or any of the other women fighting this. She just hates Posie.

I'm sure you will all love to point out the error of my ways but wtaf has KJK done for women?Toured about selling some tshirts and merch while voicing her opinion ? Fair enough ,but don't make out she gives a fuck about women like me - poor women with disabilities. Bindel on the other hand ,has ways had our voice. HJ seems yet another book seller.

This thread isn't about KJK. Have you watched the debate @Andthisyoushallknow? Thoughts?