Women's rights general conversations

[Kucingsparkles]

This is an experimental thread, all input much appreciated!

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

Right, bring on the flames or flowers! <cowers>

Enjoyed this in the comments:

Four rape prevention tips:

If someone is drunk, don’t rape them.

When you see someone walking by themselves, leave them alone.

Use the buddy system. If it is difficult for you to stop yourself from raping someone, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.

Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.

Rape culture portrays men as powerless to act against their violent sexual urges, forces women to police their own clothing, beverages, behaviours and sexuality, and is demeaning for everyone.

Everyone should speak out against rape culture

Reply:

Is this a joke? You’d tell your own daughter not to worry because rapists will police themselves.

How is that working for burglars, car thieves, terrorists, shoplifters, child snatchers and war mongers in your world?

I've not read the report yet, but this promises to be interesting: www.mumsnet.com/talk/academics_corner/4693751-david-renton-yes-that-one-on-gender-critical-beliefs-academic-freedom-and-the-right-to-protest

(For those of you who share my inability to remember people's names, Garden Court Chanbers may ring more of a bell )

I was going to post that, too! Terrifying.

Having read The Case Against the Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry I would always recommend to young women that they make sure they don't get drunk. I know they should be able to do what they want, but you have to be realistic, and live in the world we live in not the one we should live in. Putting themselves in danger to make a point isn't very sensible.

Thank you for this wonderful description @Mmmnotsure .
It's made me definitely want to go to the next one!

We should be advising men to make sure they don’t either, judging by this comment:

That’s true. Leaving the alcohol issue to one side it must spotlight the biological differences between men and women. Biologically we need to reproduce as all living species do. In mammals we have egg producing females and sperm producing males. Women ovulate monthly and are most fertile at certain times and so their sexual drive differs from men who have to be ready to mate at any time and are quickly aroused sexually. Let’s compare that to dogs. When a b.itch is on heat all the dogs in the vicinity will be attracted to mate. You might respond that we are not animals. Well basically we are. However our intellect and reasoning prevents us from behaving like that. Unless something affects our intellect and reasoning. Which is where we get back to alcohol.

I think this one could be worth its own thread here on FWR Bin?

Yes we absolutely should, and the rape prosecution statistics are appalling. There should be greater sentences for men raping drunk women, no 'she shouldn't have been drunk' get-outs. Women should be allowed to get drunk, and not censured for it. But I would still advise young women not to get drunk.

regarding the men getting drunk and reverting to their "natural animal instincts". Its worth pointing out that people from different countries find alcohol affects them differently. e.g there was a study that apparently showed it makes British people more aggressive but Italians not so much. There is no physiological difference Italians and English people - however English people have the perception that drinking alcohol makes them more aggressive, so it does - it gives them permission basically. The same as in some abusive relationships where the man is "only abusive when drunk" but will use the threat of getting drunk to intimidate their partners.
So - I suspect the whole "men can't help themselves when drunk because evolution" is a bullshit excuse/self fulfilling prophecy. If I actually thought drinking would make me do terrible things I would never drink personally.

But I agree with the advising young women not to get too drunk. Its hard thugh because you get caught in a double trap - if you suggest women be cautious round men its man hating/suggesting all men are rapists/paranoid etc. If they don't and anything bad happens though its "she put herself at risk".

There an article in the guardian today on the trend for choking during sex

“It made me sad to think about the amount of girls who would have just “gone along with it” in that moment – including myself a few years ago. I would have known myself well enough to know that being choked wasn’t something that sexually turned me on, however I don’t know if I would have been able to distinguish between enjoying a sexual encounter because the man I was with was enjoying it, or because I truly enjoyed it myself.”

I think this doesn’t go far enough - this isn’t a benign sexual technique where you tolerate something that just doesn’t do it for you. At best it is a risky activity between consenting adults, at worst it is used as a “rough sex” defence in rape cases. Having a man who is bigger and stronger than you suddenly put his hands round your neck when you’ve made yourself vulnerable is a horrific concept to me.

Particularly when the man has completely misunderstood the original concept of asphyxiation being about restriction of blood flow to the brain to seek a high (and that didn’t worked out well for Michael Hutchence) and is instead getting off on the power play of it.

Yes, @namitynamechange - I remember that coming up.in one of my degree modules. Same with the 'gin makes you sad' myth. Alcohol does have neurological effects, but how they manifest is largely cultural. You do what you believe alcohol gives you permission to do.

@DameMaud I agree, but I'm not sure of the etiquette about lifting someone else's thread (and it would be a shame to split the diacussion). I'm half expecting it to get moved over here anyway.

I think this doesn’t go far enough - this isn’t a benign sexual technique where you tolerate something that just doesn’t do it for you. At best it is a risky activity between consenting adults, at worst it is used as a “rough sex” defence in rape cases. Having a man who is bigger and stronger than you suddenly put his hands round your neck when you’ve made yourself vulnerable is a horrific concept to me.

I agree and I hate that young women even feel they have to remotely consider it as a possibility during sex, for fear of what? FOMO? Seeming prudish and vanilla? What the hell has "progressive" "sex-positive" "anti-kink-shaming" "porn is great" "sex work is work" society done to our young people, especially women, all for the twisted enjoyment of what used to be a tiny minority of fucked-up men?

It seems that being vanilla is now something to be ashamed of, which is weird.

ISTR reading about an experiment where participants thought they were drinking alcohol but weren’t, and a lot (maybe all) behaved drunkenly anyway.

Same with the 'gin makes you sad' myth.

Isn't all alcohol a depressant on the body!? Initially can give you a feeling of a high especially if you're at a party, with friends, celebrating, whatever. But in fact physiologically it's a depressant I'm fairly sure. The myth about gin is probably because it tends to be - or tended to be - a drink women were more likely to take and women perhaps feel freer with their emotions when alcohol has removed inhibitions? Also gin used to be very cheap - drunk for a penny, blind drunk for tuppence.

I agree and I hate that young women even feel they have to remotely consider it as a possibility during sex, for fear of what? FOMO? Seeming prudish and vanilla? What the hell has "progressive" "sex-positive" "anti-kink-shaming" "porn is great" "sex work is work" society done to our young people, especially women, all for the twisted enjoyment of what used to be a tiny minority of fucked-up men?

This is 21st century version I heard a lot as a young teenager: "Are you frigid!" "Everyone else is doing it!" "Is there something wrong with you?" "Maybe you need to see a doctor." "You're no fun" "You're not like all the other girls."

But course if you gave in to all this pressure they'd call you a slag and tell all their mates you were easy.

It was certainly whiskey that made my FIL arsey. My heart would sink when he poured his first one as I just knew he'd end up being argumentative.

i <applauds @Kucingsparkles >

Couldn’t agree more

We did that experiment as part of the module @CyanCyan - half the class on alcohol (various doses, or placebo), the other half on N20 (various concentrations, or placebo) withal series of reaction and cognitive tests. Asked to guess afterwards (before being shown the test scores) whether we'd been on placebo or active intervention and none of the placebo group got it right.

Fair enough @BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn . Maybe if it doesn't get attention here, or moved here, could just start a thread with the original article (rather than lifting the thread). Think it's an important one!

Alcohol is a depressant, but not in the sense of 'the opposite of an an antidepressant'. It depresses - or for clarity suppresses - neurological reactions. It has more effect on some part of the brain than others, which can alter emotional affect, but it doesn't directly affect mood.

Obecalp is a powerful drug

It is. Although in the N2O group the placebo was actually pure O2 rather than air, so not entirely without effects of its own.

Also doesn't alcohol lower the body temperature!? So that whole St. Bernards dog rescuing you with a flask of whiskey is probably the last thing you need if caught in a snow drift!?

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn would a placebo help alcoholics wean themselves off drink!?