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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's rights general conversations

986 replies

Kucingsparkles · 06/12/2022 15:14

This is an experimental thread, all input much appreciated!

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

Right, bring on the flames or flowers! <cowers>

OP posts:
Tricyrtis2022 · 07/12/2022 13:34

ErrolTheDragon · 07/12/2022 13:33

Were you allowed to discuss some feminist issues in other threads not just your 'naughty step'?

No, not really. We'd be directed back to

> That Thread

Kucingsparkles · 07/12/2022 13:43

Tricyrtis2022 · 07/12/2022 13:34

No, not really. We'd be directed back to

> That Thread

To be fair, there was a "Feminism" thread which would tolerate discussion of really indisputable female issues, e.g. everybody could agree to be horrified by the murder of Sarah Everard and then all would express disgust at male violence and policemen pretending to be harmless. But that thread never allowed any joining-of-the-dots-of-common-recurring-themes - that was Very Bad, you see.

Which is one reason why I wanted to start a general thread here in FWR, because I keep seeing the same few themes over and over, and how they connect up into the bigger picture that we might call The Patriarchy.

OP posts:
Britinme · 07/12/2022 13:44

The "Owen Jones is a bit of a dick" thread had some promise though.

StephanieSuperpowers · 07/12/2022 13:44

Well, in reality there were two threads. The thread for the kind of feminism where transwomen are women, sex work is real work and you shouldn't harass women but also boys get harassed etc, and the sex based rights thread, which we were all on and which was by far the more controversial.

Tricyrtis2022 · 07/12/2022 13:46

Kuc, yes there was the Feminism thread but I tend to discount it because it was so toothless and didn't get posted on much compared to the FWR Thread of Hate.

Tricyrtis2022 · 07/12/2022 13:48

I kind of miss the OJ thread, but not enough to go back.

Kucingsparkles · 07/12/2022 13:48

Hah yes, you're all right!

OP posts:
MissLawls · 07/12/2022 14:17

Well, in reality there were two threads. The thread for the kind of feminism where transwomen are women, sex work is real work and you shouldn't harass women but also boys get harassed etc, and the sex based rights thread, which we were all on and which was by far the more controversial.

For those unfamiliar with the board we left after being told we were bigots and that because of us the board would be closed because our very existence even on just one thread which many didn't bother to read made them feel unsafe... think of the feminism thread on that board as the equivalent of the Women's Institute, The Fawcett Society, The Women's Equality Party and think of OUR thread as Sex Matters, Fair Play For Women and Standing For Women.

WagnersFourthSymphony · 07/12/2022 14:38

@MissLawls
think of the feminism thread on that board as the equivalent of the Women's Institute, The Fawcett Society, The Women's Equality Party and think of OUR thread as Sex Matters, Fair Play For Women and Standing For Women.

Ah, so it was like Nicola 'feminist to my fingertips' Sturgeon? 😏

Here we are reality based feminists (thanks, Hadley Freeman). 🙂

RealFeminist · 07/12/2022 14:49

SOME OF US HUV REAL FINGERTIPS TOO

IReallyLikeCrows · 07/12/2022 14:53

Re last night. I was quite upset to see himself being told it will all be okay on the lifeboat thread, partly because of his refusal to just listen here but even more so because of how he represented it on the lifeboat thread, the whole pontification thing. Seriously, fuck that shit. It was beyond disrespectful and it was sly. "Hey, laydeez, poor old me needs to go away because the laydeez who know less than me won't listen but I reckon if I get a bit poor old me here enough of you will sing Please Don't Go and then I'll feel justified."

I'll acknowledge a certain negativity in that he wasn't an ally way back when and last night was proof to me that he still isn't. I'd use the whole wolf in sheep's clothing thing but I love wolves so that doesn't work for me.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/12/2022 15:02

The beauty and joy of FWR for me is that we women can bare our teeth, here we're the default people, and men have to fit in. It rather alarmed me back when I started lurking many years ago, until I realised how freeing it is compared to so many other spaces.

This. I also came here from the site we are talking about, 7 years ago. This site is predominantly women, and this board even more so, and while men are welcome to post, they aren't going to be centred in the way they are everywhere else. It was like a breath of fresh air, sure it has its issues, but being among so many women is on the whole very supportive.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/12/2022 15:04

But that thread never allowed any joining-of-the-dots-of-common-recurring-themes - that was Very Bad, you see.

That's what's so wrong with feminist discussions in general at the moment. And "inclusive" language which robs us of the ability to make these connections.

StellaAndCrow · 07/12/2022 15:07

levelgaze · 07/12/2022 12:32

To be fair, this is our 'lifeboat' thread and many of us are shell-shocked by the way we have been treated on the other board.

A little understanding and patience whilst we find our feet would go a long way.

level, this thread isn't your lifeboat thread. This one was started for general discussion of feminist topics that either don't have a thread of their own, or to discuss overarching issues (someone more fluent can explain better).

There are two lifeboat threads, one in this board, I think entitled "Feminism and women's rights chat", and one in chat, I can't remember the title.

StellaAndCrow · 07/12/2022 15:15

Wow Neighbour that's such a good point, thank you.

*"I earn approx £11 per hour for a 37.5 work week. By the standards I grew up in, this is the heights of luxury, and I feel pretty well off at the moment, so I donate to the local outreach service that works with prostituted women and the food bank. I don't ask anyone there to get me off first.

If I can afford to do that, the men who spend their disposable income on prostitution also can. They're choosing not to. They're choosing to use their current financial situation to extort sex acts from women who wouldn't have anything to do with them otherwise."*

It's a bit dim of me, but I really hadn't thought of that before. You've spurred me on to find my local organisation to contribute to, thank you.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 07/12/2022 15:15

Middle-aged men, who like to think of themselves as trans allies and are in love with that image of themselves, have a habit of loudly and publicly championing distressed teenage girls who identify as trans, and supporting these girls' rights to have their developing breasts cut off and be placed on puberty disrupting drugs. They even contribute to these children's crowdfunders for surgery.

Then they tell doubtful women of all ages that we just don't know anything about teenage girls. That we have never met a "trans man" and cannot understand how these female children feel. As if we were never teenage girls, as if we never were surrounded by other teenage girls, as if we do not have teenage girls of our own.

He has segmented us off from these "trans men" in his mind, and his artificial division means everything to him.

When we try to explain our perspective, we may be accused of pontificating, lecturing and all the other similar verbs. The man, of course, is the expert, as he parrots short, comforting clichés lifted from gender identity theory evangelists. He doesn't think about anything he says, because he knows it's right already. He speaks over us, without reading a word of the replies, because he knows he needn't listen; he's repeating the current dogma so he knows he's right.

Never does it occur to him that we have read everything he has and we still disagree with gender identity theory, because we've thought about it in more depth than he has.

Sex trade apologists follow exactly the same script.

StellaAndCrow · 07/12/2022 15:17

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/12/2022 15:02

The beauty and joy of FWR for me is that we women can bare our teeth, here we're the default people, and men have to fit in. It rather alarmed me back when I started lurking many years ago, until I realised how freeing it is compared to so many other spaces.

This. I also came here from the site we are talking about, 7 years ago. This site is predominantly women, and this board even more so, and while men are welcome to post, they aren't going to be centred in the way they are everywhere else. It was like a breath of fresh air, sure it has its issues, but being among so many women is on the whole very supportive.

Yes, and I wonder if women coming from the other site are used to having to placate the men to some extent, if that site was majority male or 50/50.

Whereas there's enough of us here to be heard, and that make me braver.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 07/12/2022 15:18

StellaAndCrow · 07/12/2022 15:15

Wow Neighbour that's such a good point, thank you.

*"I earn approx £11 per hour for a 37.5 work week. By the standards I grew up in, this is the heights of luxury, and I feel pretty well off at the moment, so I donate to the local outreach service that works with prostituted women and the food bank. I don't ask anyone there to get me off first.

If I can afford to do that, the men who spend their disposable income on prostitution also can. They're choosing not to. They're choosing to use their current financial situation to extort sex acts from women who wouldn't have anything to do with them otherwise."*

It's a bit dim of me, but I really hadn't thought of that before. You've spurred me on to find my local organisation to contribute to, thank you.

You cannot know how much that brightens my day. Flowers

StephanieSuperpowers · 07/12/2022 15:22

I do find the idea that if you are lonely, you rent companionship or sex or something from a woman. They never really rent a man to go and do paintball or watch football and have a beer if they're lonely.

StellaAndCrow · 07/12/2022 15:22

It would be really good if TassLeHoff could read some of the links - I've learned such a lot from things I've read here.

StellaAndCrow · 07/12/2022 15:24

Aw thank you for the flowers! Flowers Star

StellaAndCrow · 07/12/2022 15:28

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 07/12/2022 15:15

Middle-aged men, who like to think of themselves as trans allies and are in love with that image of themselves, have a habit of loudly and publicly championing distressed teenage girls who identify as trans, and supporting these girls' rights to have their developing breasts cut off and be placed on puberty disrupting drugs. They even contribute to these children's crowdfunders for surgery.

Then they tell doubtful women of all ages that we just don't know anything about teenage girls. That we have never met a "trans man" and cannot understand how these female children feel. As if we were never teenage girls, as if we never were surrounded by other teenage girls, as if we do not have teenage girls of our own.

He has segmented us off from these "trans men" in his mind, and his artificial division means everything to him.

When we try to explain our perspective, we may be accused of pontificating, lecturing and all the other similar verbs. The man, of course, is the expert, as he parrots short, comforting clichés lifted from gender identity theory evangelists. He doesn't think about anything he says, because he knows it's right already. He speaks over us, without reading a word of the replies, because he knows he needn't listen; he's repeating the current dogma so he knows he's right.

Never does it occur to him that we have read everything he has and we still disagree with gender identity theory, because we've thought about it in more depth than he has.

Sex trade apologists follow exactly the same script.

Wow, Neighbour, you are on fire! Thank you for explaining so fluently.

StellaAndCrow · 07/12/2022 15:32

Thank you to the poster above who linked to this thread
twitter.com/guillotesque/status/1599717594516189184?s=20&t=Zfo9WtcvKUIVvdoBZpZZPw

Surely anyone reading this would have a bit of a rethink about how ok some prostitution is?

CyanCyan · 07/12/2022 15:35

One of the best sex trade apologies I've heard was likening visiting a prostitute to visiting a therapist. As in, you're emotionally exploiting the therapist and they wouldn't be there either if you weren't paying them; what's the difference?

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 07/12/2022 15:37

Aw thanks, Stella!

The following is not mine, and nor is it about the sex trade. But when I read it, I suddenly understood why there is such a gulf between male sex trade apologists and women who try to articulate their discomfort.

extract

The world is disturbingly comfortable with the fact that women sometimes leave a sexual encounter in tears.

(continues)

The real problem isn't that we — as a culture — don't sufficiently consider men's biological reality. The problem is rather that theirs is literally the only biological reality we ever bother to consider.

So let's actually talk bodies. Let's take bodies and the facts of sex seriously for a change. And let's allow some women back into the equation, shall we? Because if you're going to wax poetic about male pleasure, you had better be ready to talk about its secret, unpleasant, ubiquitous cousin: female pain.

Research shows that 30 percent of women report pain during vaginal sex, 72 percent report pain during anal sex, and "large proportions" don't tell their partners when sex hurts.

That matters, because nowhere is our lack of practice at thinking about non-male biological realities more evident than when we talk about "bad sex." For all the calls for nuance in this discussion of what does and doesn't constitute harassment or assault, I've been dumbstruck by the flattening work of that phrase — specifically, the assumption that "bad sex" means the same thing to men who have sex with women as it does to women who have sex with men.

The studies on this are few. A casual survey of forums where people discuss "bad sex" suggests that men tend to use the term to describe a passive partner or a boring experience. (Here's a very unscientific Twitter pollI did that found just that.) But when most women talk about "bad sex," they tend to mean coercion, or emotional discomfort or, even more commonly, physical pain. Debby Herbenick, a professor at the Indiana University School of Public Health, and one of the forces behind the National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior, confirmed this. "When it comes to 'good sex,'" she told me, "women often mean without pain, men often mean they had orgasms."

As for bad sex, University of Michigan Professor Sara McClelland, another one of the few scholars who has done rigorous work on this issue, discovered in the course of her research on how young men and women rate sexual satisfaction that "men and women imagined a very different low end of the sexual satisfaction scale."

While women imagined the low end to include the potential for extremely negative feelings and the potential for pain, men imagined the low end to represent the potential for less satisfying sexual outcomes, but they never imagined harmful or damaging outcomes for themselves. ["Intimate Justice: Sexual satisfaction in young adults"]

Once you've absorbed how horrifying this is, you might reasonably conclude that our "reckoning" over sexual assault and harassment has suffered because men and women have entirely different rating scales. An 8 on a man's Bad Sex scale is like a 1 on a woman's. This tendency for men and women to use the same term — bad sex — to describe experiences an objective observer would characterize as vastly different is the flip side of a known psychological phenomenon called "relative deprivation," by which disenfranchised groups, having been trained to expect little, tend paradoxically to report the same levels of satisfaction as their better-treated, more privileged peers.

This is one reason why Sullivan's attempt to naturalize the status quo is so damaging.

When a woman says "I'm uncomfortable" and leaves a sexual encounter in tears, then, maybe she's not being a fragile flower with no tolerance for discomfort. And maybe we could stand to think a little harder about the biological realities a lot of women deal with, because unfortunately, painful sex isn't the exceptional outlier we like to pretend it is. It's pretty damn common.

In considering Sullivan's proposal, we might also, provisionally, and just as a thought experiment, accept that biology — or "nature" — coexists with history and sometimes replicates the lopsided biases of its time.

(Continues)

This is certainly true of medicine. Back in the 17th century, the conventional wisdom was that women were the ones with the rampant, undisciplined sexual appetites. That things have changed doesn't mean they're necessarily better. These days, a man can walk out of his doctor's office with a prescription for Viagra based on little but a self-report, but it still takes a woman, on average, 9.28 years of suffering to be diagnosed with endometriosis, a condition caused by endometrial tissue growing outside the uterus. By that time, many find that not just sex but everyday existence has become a life-deforming challenge. That's a blunt biological reality if ever there was one.

Or, since sex is the subject here, what about how our society's scientific community has treated female dyspareunia — the severe physical pain some women experience during sex — vs. erectile dysfunction (which, while lamentable, is not painful)? PubMed has 393 clinical trials studying dyspareunia. Vaginismus? 10. Vulvodynia? 43.

Erectile dysfunction? 1,954.

That's right: PubMed has almost five times as many clinical trials on male sexual pleasure as it has on female sexual pain. And why? Because we live in a culture that sees female pain as normal and male pleasure as a right.

Continues

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