Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Hadley Freeman's First Column for the Sunday Times

78 replies

Igneococcus · 03/12/2022 18:42

"When did feminism become a dirty word?"

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/089098d6-728c-11ed-a107-df8b1c5e158a?shareToken=5c6de958abdf67a9ff1a2ba4208a3647

OP posts:
BellaAmorosa · 04/12/2022 00:31

IwantToRetire · 03/12/2022 23:32

Well sorry to say I think this article is deeply disappointing. It falls into the category of media feminism ie a knowledge of feminism that is based entirely on what other media feminists have said.

And one of the reasons this is disturbing is that what was known as 4th wave feminism had very little impact on feminists who already existed and those who became interested in women's rights. It was largely a creation of media feminists just popularising her friends.

At that is what this article does. ie it mentions those the media already knows about as though they are THE feminists. And particularly after the detailed discussion about the deception at FiLia and the wide spread astonishment by feminists who were taken aback at WPUK going all out to support a film that is a direct rip off and attempt to nullify PP's work, this is quite shoddy.

Added to which the telegraph has in the past couple of days had so many articles that cover these issues in a better way, apart from the Jo Bartosch one which was really thin, this article doesn't really stand out.

It always amazes me the contributors of FWR are such thoughtful and independent thinkers, but get caught up in fanzine feminism.

Yes, great that HF has survived and left the Guardian, but maybe that qualifies her to talk about that experience but does not make her an expert on the development of feminism.

One example, the huge impace of queer politics that 4th Wave feminism acted as a trojan horse to contaminate women's liberation politics, and of course the ageism.

I hope the Times doesn't use her as their go to commentator on feminism, but they continue to treat it as an issue that needs journalistic investigation, not a sort of lifestyle coverage by a name writer.

Great points.

StellaAndCrow · 04/12/2022 00:39

I'm so glad she got this in:
"At a charity event to help end male violence against women and girls, at which Sturgeon gave the main speech, attendees were sent a note ahead of time that said the charity wanted 'to create a safe environment for our guests and ask you to support us in this aim by refraining from discussions of the definition of a woman, and single sex spaces, in relation to the gender recognition act . . . This is not the place for that discussion'."

MrsJamin · 04/12/2022 08:06

So glad that Hadley finally has the freedom to say the truth. I hope those at the Guardian are questioning themselves today, like that sketch... "Are we the bad guys?"
Also I'm glad she didn't have to mention Mermaids to make her points - this is so much bigger than the mounting scandal.

nettie434 · 04/12/2022 08:28

Thanks for the share token, Igneococcus. I enjoyed it. I thought she conveyed a lot of important points, like the comments from the UN rapporteur on self ID in Scotland, in a readable way.

Floisme · 04/12/2022 09:45

I've been an unashamed Hadley Freeman fan since she was on the Guardian fashion desk but I do get what IwantToRetire is saying. It says at the end that Hadley doesn't start her regular column until next year, and I can imagine the Sunday Times asking her for an 'Introduce yourself to our readers' kind of article. I get the sense she already had this one sketched out waiting to go, had maybe even tried to persuade the Guardian to run, which would explain the number of American references.

I hope she'll be able to continue her interviews with the Sunday Times because I think they're superb. She's great on films and fashion too.

I also notice the editorial note that says she'll be writing 'exclusively for the Sunday Times' which presumably means that's the last we'll see of her writing for Unherd which is a shame.

Floisme · 04/12/2022 09:47

Sorry forgot to thank Igneococcus for the share token Blush

thelionthewitchtheaudacityofTHISbitch · 04/12/2022 10:00

Thank you for the share token. It was an interesting read, but as always useful to read decent critiques on here.

Scarfymcscarface · 04/12/2022 10:10

Thank you OP a great piece by Hadley

VicSynix · 04/12/2022 10:32

Bugger it, I'm going to have to go and buy an actual paper to say thank you, aren't I??

IcakethereforeIam · 05/12/2022 00:16

What's going on at the Guardian? I stumbled across this article by Nick Cohen writing for the Spectator. I'm assuming it's the same guy who writes, should that be wrote, regularly for the Guardian.

Is it the fellow about whom allegations of impropriety have been made?

Anyway, it's a reasonably good piece on threats to free speech. Doc. Stock is referenced (I find what she went through heart-rending, I hope she's in a good space now and gets vindication and justice).

If it is the same Nick Cohen he seems almost GC (or perhaps trans-sceptic), which I don't recall from any Guardian pieces.

I don't think it deserves its own thread, so (with apologies for any derail) I'm putting it here with Hadley Free(dwo)man.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/a-culture-of-fear-has-taken-over-academia-and-the-arts/#comments-container

nauticant · 05/12/2022 07:47

Good to see Hadley Freeman off to a strong start in The Sunday Times.

Woman's Hour could be a good listen at 10am this morning:

We talk to the journalist Hadley Freeman about why she resigned as a columnist at The Guardian newspaper after 22 years in the job. She has accused the publication of “censoring” discussion about gender identity and says she was discouraged from writing about antisemitism. Emma Barnett speaks to Hadley about her concerns and plans for the future.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001fvx6

nettie434 · 05/12/2022 08:11

If it is the same Nick Cohen he seems almost GC (or perhaps trans-sceptic), which I don't recall from any Guardian pieces.

It is the same person, icakethereforiam. So far as I know, his Guardian column is still on hold pending an investigation. There was a thread about it a while ago.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4603590-nick-cohen-suspended-over-trans-rights-row

He has written a few articles like the one you've linked to. The Corbynistas always disliked him for being a 'centrist'. In the old days of print journalism, his column was in The Observer, not The Guardian. The Observer was always more middle of the road politically than The Guardian.

Thanks for the alert to Woman's Hour, nauticant. It has improved beyond all measure with the new presenters in my opinion. Or perhaps the editorial policies have changed. Either way, it has had some very good, albeit harrowing, interviews, like the one with Rachael Watts last week.

RoyalCorgi · 05/12/2022 08:17

Nick Cohen's Spectator article is very good. He has written occasional gc pieces in the past. My understanding is that he's now been let go from the Observer.

nettie434 · 05/12/2022 08:29

Thanks for the update RoyalCorgi.

MrsJamin · 05/12/2022 10:55

Hadley was on Radio 4's Women's Hour today, it's well worth a listen. How she stayed so long at the Guardian, I have no idea!

CrossPurposes · 05/12/2022 11:02

Where is the discussion about HF on Woman's Hour gone?

Ponypitter · 05/12/2022 11:04

Listening now - she is absolutely brilliant.

And it's so telling that Kath Viner refused to come on and defend her terrible failure of leadership.

twirlcurl · 05/12/2022 11:31

Re: Stonewall. It's worth listening to the podcast 'Nolan Investigates' on this organisation. It is comprehensive. Its goes into almost too much detail in numerous episodes but it does give an understanding as to how much influence this body has had on the gender issue. An unhealthy amount of power in high places has distorted healthy discussion. At least the BBC supported the podcast, even if they were themselves one of the culprits.

Helleofabore · 05/12/2022 11:33

That was a good interview. That two of her articles were used as examples of transphobia is really shocking. Do these people who do this, and using Clare Dimyon's letter as another example, not understand that what they have just done is 'hateful' as they are aiming their pointy fingers of shame directly at individuals. Either patients or co-workers in these two instances.

It is direct discrimination to use these specific articles and letters as examples, surely?

CrossPurposes · 05/12/2022 12:10

CrossPurposes · 05/12/2022 11:02

Where is the discussion about HF on Woman's Hour gone?

I must have a accidentally hidden it. Anyone how I can unhide a thread?

nauticant · 05/12/2022 12:17

Dunno. What happens when you click on this:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4691720-hadley-freeman-on-womans-hour-shortly

nauticant · 05/12/2022 12:18

Yes, go to that webpage and at the bottom you can click on Unhide.

nauticant · 05/12/2022 12:19

Yes, go to that webpage and at the bottom you can click on Unhide.

CrossPurposes · 05/12/2022 12:42

nauticant · 05/12/2022 12:19

Yes, go to that webpage and at the bottom you can click on Unhide.

Thanks @nauticant! Must have happened when I flipped the thread.

JustSpeculation · 05/12/2022 14:31

I think it's an underhand trick on the Times part to duplicitously get me to keep subscribing by the conscienceless trick of employing writers I want to read.