Gym agrees to no self ID

[SleekMamma]

I got a call from my gym to ask why I was cancelling my membership.

Really nice woman, who was horrified that I'd heard this chain of gyms let's people self ID and get changed where they want to.

I explained I didn't want to get changed with a male identifying as a woman, and my young daughter definitely shouldn't have to.

She agreed and says that's not the policy. I asked if it did happen and I went to the front desk whether I would be supported or the trans identifying male would be. She said I would.

And agreed that unisex toilets even were awful.

She will check with Head office on what the official policy is and let me know.

I will post again if I get a response.
I am expecting that the head office policy will be to allow self ID however. Let's see. Is the tide truly turning?

Good luck! I think there are one or two gyms which operate in line with the EA and its exceptions. There's no basis whatever for 'single gender' facilities, only for single sex ones.

Which chain is it? Virgin told me in 2020 that they allowed self id and head office confirmed it. I left after being a member 14 yes. Pure gym also tweeted they did last year.
Bsnnatynes do not allow self if and neither do David Lloyd as far as I know.
mum not sure of others.
Please do let us know the chain and their response though please. I will only use gyms which do not allow self id into the female changing rooms.

Following with interest.

Gyms really need to address this issue properly and decide how they want to provide for their customers.

The thing that really worries me is the design of the changing rooms often make them the kind of environment you really don't want to share with an unknown male. Showers with flimsy curtains and open plan changing (one cubicle if you're lucky) ; away from the gym floor down corridors, through soundproof doors. This has been my experience of both fairly high spec expensive gyms and budget 24 hour gyms with virtually no staff.

Contrary to what they've publicly stated in 2019 (inews.co.uk/news/uk/david-lloyd-gyms-trans-gender-certificate-267576), David Lloyds DO allow self-identification into their changing rooms. As with the majority of UK gyms, they follow UK Active guidelines (www.ukactive.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/ukactive-Transgender-Guide.pdf) which state that:

1. Individuals will not be asked and do not need to declare their trans status, GRC or no GRC (Obviously, because that would open DL up to direct discrimination cases, which is why that 2019 statement/policy is legally vacuous.)
2. But if a club user makes David Lloyds staff aware that they think someone is using the incorrect changing room, then the Duty Manager may "Ask to speak to the individual in private."
3. If said individual is unhappy using gender neutral changing rooms (assuming the club has one to offer) then he/she is permitted to use the whichever is "consistent with their gender appearance".

So, as per usual, it's two things:

1. How female you LOOK (potentially a penis-haver), NOT about whether you are LEGALLY female (still, potentially a penis-haver because UK law is bonkers) or - more importantly - ACTUALLY female (practically by definition, not a penis-haver).
2. How happy or (more pertinently) not happy the individual is to respect the safety, privacy and dignity of the majority in the space he/she seeks to use - a majority whose counter-opinion about his/her use of the space will either not be sought or actively ignored.

Anyway, just a little clarification for those of you who, like me, were misled on what the David Lloyd's policy actually is when signing up.

(I thought, though, you'd find it amusing to know that they do apparently deploy the Equalities Act exemption in hiring specifically legally male/female cleaning staff for respective male/female changing rooms because... of safeguarding. Ha. Put that in a Christmas Cracker, why don'tcha?!)

Sorry, for some reason that first link doesn't work. Here it is again: inews.co.uk/news/uk/david-lloyd-gyms-trans-gender-certificate-267576

It's quoting from HuffPost UK who appeared to be attempting an exposé on trans-inclusivity: www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/david-lloyd-trans-access-gym_uk_5c825491e4b0d9361626ec6c?utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage&guccounter=1

I did ask my local David Lloyd and they said it was not self id and they had made males identifying as women leave female changing rooms ( I was told this was a while ago though as there have been no further cases). I did ask several staff members including management.
Definitely need to find out for sure.

This was in a chat this morning with someone from the DL central team, so I'd definitely clarify it with your local branch team and get it passed up if you're unsure.

I signed up because of the 2019 policy/statement. I had that policy/statement confirmed by the local branch Membership Manager when I signed the membership agreement. I then asked the General Manager to confirm it again. He implied the policy was otherwise, so I cancelled my membership. Called by a member of central membership staff to ask why I wasn't paying to which I said I would neither go/pay until the matter was clarified. Then the above is what he told me. So I cancelled my membership. Because I'm not happy changing alongside penises.

I agree. I was a member of virgin for 14 years and cancelled when they told me men could get their penises out in front of my daughters if they self id as women.
i was furious.

Update! Virgin Active.

They called me back. She's been checking with site manager and operations manager a confirmed that there is NO unisex or mixed changing, all changing is single sex only. And no plans to change this.

If anyone was changing in the women's that shouldn't be there they would be asked to leave.

And I need reports I had read are wrong.

So there you go.
Keep complaining everyone, vote with your feet. Or wallet.

That's good news OP I was hoping you would say it was Virgin Active as that's my gym.

Or it would be if I ever went....

Isn't it interesting that only one person's happiness matters and directs policy?

And it's the person with the penis.

No one has any problem knowing who is the man and who is the woman. These places are going to have to start acknowledging their policy of male supremacism and sex based discrimination.

What I liked was the incredulity from her that anyone would try it on, and they would get short shrift if they did.
I felt like if I went to the front desk I would not be the one kicked out.

But the proof is in the pudding

That is good to hear. I am swamped with work currently but do you mind if I forward you the email they sent me in sept 20 saying self id was the law. I was gutted to leave after 14 yrs membership.

Absolute @nilsmousehammer. I pointed out with unapologetic directness to the General Manager that it would be his job to tell the female who complains about the male in the female changing room that HE, the GM, has DECIDED that the male is in fact female because of his... sports bra, make up and/or long hair.

In short, "Your job is now to gaslight women, pal!" Good luck with that, chum. Sleep easy wontcha?!

@SleekMamma Until I heard it from central office, I wouldn't be so sure. I can easily envisage a situation in which a logical, common sense GM, who prioritises the safeguarding of women and children in his/her branch, gets thrown under the bus by the central team were they to come under under Twitter fire for chucking a bloke out of the female changing room.

Also, Virgin have got a poor track record on gender ideology, so I'd remain suspicious.

Oh Norma27 interesting yes please do send it over

This was the rubbish answer head office sent to me. I did try to get more from them. The Solihull general manager actually called me as he was actually on my side and disgusted when I asked if men could get their penises out in front of my 2 daughters (at that time 14 and 6).

I am happy to keep my first name visible. I have removed vA responders name.

Good afternoon Diane,

Many thanks for taking to time to speak with James and to write to us.

We are sorry if you feel we have not addressed your concerns about the safety of female members within our changing rooms. The health and safety of our members and staff is of utmost importance to us and is not the same topic as a transgender member wishing to use the changing rooms and other facilities which corresponds to their gender identity.

We work hard to ensure our clubs are a safe, friendly and a welcoming place to be for anyone.

All members and staff must commit to conducting themselves in a well-mannered fashion when on our premises. We do not tolerate anything that puts another’s safety at risk; disturbs the enjoyment, or, impairs the use of a club for other people.

Any breach of these objectives, by anyone, will lead to termination of membership or employment, as applicable. Our teams are trained in the prevention of risks identified to our members’ health and safety, all complaints we receive are dealt with quickly and firmly with our dedicated Safeguarding team at the forefront of any investigation.

We appreciate this is a sensitive area and it can be complicated, we are an inclusive business, and aim to treat all of our members fairly, appropriately and with respect.

Kind regards

Customer Service Manager

VIRGIN ACTIVE UK
100 Aldersgate Street, London EC1A 4LX

Well done, OP, for complaining.

Norma27 but that's a ludicrous response! A piece of paper does not magically transform a body. Bizarre.

It is a ridiculous response. The general manager of Solihull VA was clear he was told any male could self id into female changing rooms. I am happy for them to dispute this fact.

A family membership (4 of us) who had been members 14 yrs meant nothing if a man wanted to get his penis out in front of my daughters.
I actually stated that and the manager had to say yes.

We do not tolerate anything that puts another’s safety at risk; disturbs the enjoyment, or, impairs the use of a club for other people.

Unless it's a female person who is distressed by being expected to get naked with a strange bloke who has chosen to invoke special protections. Then she can either be disturbed quietly with her impaired enjoyment and risk her safety while providing service to the male's choices and greater power, or she can fuck off.

All hail penises. And posh sounding waffle.

I’ve realised I don’t have them saying it was the law, but they tried to say it in a phone call.
They probably know they are on thin ice. Anyway, I would never go back to them after their gaslighting. And I was a huge fan for 14 yrs who always recommended them.

Norma27 when was this?
I wonder if they have had a below the radar about-face?

I got a similar message from David Lloyds:

At David Lloyd Clubs we pride ourselves on offering a space that is safe, welcoming and supportive for all. Along with other operators we follow the advice of our fitness industry body UK Active, who in turn work closely with the EHRC. We would encourage any member to speak with our Club teams to ensure their needs are met.

Do UK Active work closely with the EHRC? I can see no evidence of them working closely with anyone other that Stonewall.