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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So that's why Susie Green left

877 replies

DistantVworp · 02/12/2022 13:27

Charity commission launches formal inquiry into Mermaids:
twitter.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1598666394610147329?s=20&t=x_Supvwk6lHkKBR7a-ESSw

About bloody time!

OP posts:
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28
Hoppinggreen · 06/12/2022 09:29

That’s the whole bloody problem summed up right there.
Telling people things that they might not want to hear is “unsafe”
No one ever died from not being agreed with (despite what some idiots would have us believe)

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2022 09:29

Clymene · 06/12/2022 09:25

The journalist who wrote the story is a gay man who only graduated in 2020 from Sheffield. I'm guessing he knows someone at mermaids.

So trusted contact then. Possibly someone they know to be pro trans.

It looks like everyone at Mermaids is looking at everyone else for who to blame.

GrabbyGabby · 06/12/2022 09:34

I think the charity commission need to expedite their report. The MM staff have decided it all went wrong as SG was not trans/woke/kind enough. There seems to be little in the way of reflection on the lack of professional skills and the horrendous failures in safeguarding.

The risk is they will quickly reinvent themselves in response to the staff disquiet, which will end up being mermaids on steroids, but likely to have learned how to hide things a bit better. Then when the CC report comes out they can say, that was the old MM, we are the new and improved version. This shit show neds to be killed dead now before it fucks up any more kids

nilsmousehammer · 06/12/2022 09:35

Hoppinggreen · 06/12/2022 09:29

That’s the whole bloody problem summed up right there.
Telling people things that they might not want to hear is “unsafe”
No one ever died from not being agreed with (despite what some idiots would have us believe)

Yes.

The question has to be asked, unsafe for whom, and how exactly?

And when a group of employees providing services cannot be told the truth because it may be too distressing or disturbing for them to hear, we are back to competency proceedings.

This is what happens when you become confused between service user and employee, and an identity or characteristic has become sole qualification for a working role. As we saw years ago in the inquiry that identified that Challoner, who had been providing advice and training, was not able to understand safeguarding.

Not just not sufficiently trained or inexperienced or unqualified - which would have been bad enough, but not able .

Helleofabore · 06/12/2022 09:39

And then encouraging children to see their parents as the enemy if they don't affirm, affirm, affirm.

Haven't we seen an example of this over on the 'Girl got a haircut' thread?

A poster is very keen to frame any interaction, even a polite question, as an 'confrontation', 'harassment' and 'attack' and pleading for posters on MN to 'leave children alone' implying that to merely ask them a question is going to cause them life long harm. And telling children that any reasonable questioning of their behaviour is hatred, phobia and they are wishing you dead.

This extreme positioning of any reasonable action, this polarisation, goes hand in hand with encouraging children to see their parents as the enemy.

No wonder our children have such poor mental health. If they are not immediately affirmed in any of their statements about themselves, then obviously their parents hate them. They are not learning to interrogate their own thoughts and perspectives.

nilsmousehammer · 06/12/2022 09:39

GrabbyGabby · 06/12/2022 09:34

I think the charity commission need to expedite their report. The MM staff have decided it all went wrong as SG was not trans/woke/kind enough. There seems to be little in the way of reflection on the lack of professional skills and the horrendous failures in safeguarding.

The risk is they will quickly reinvent themselves in response to the staff disquiet, which will end up being mermaids on steroids, but likely to have learned how to hide things a bit better. Then when the CC report comes out they can say, that was the old MM, we are the new and improved version. This shit show neds to be killed dead now before it fucks up any more kids

It is a classically political response.

  • This thing we are doing has been found to have really, thoroughly fucked everything up.
  • So what we need to do now is more emphatic, committed, increased fucking up.

This organisation is still actively providing work with children and young people at this point, isn't it? Any responsible service with major safeguarding disasters being investigated would have halted everything and stopped all active work at this point.

RoyalCorgi · 06/12/2022 09:40

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2022 09:29

So trusted contact then. Possibly someone they know to be pro trans.

It looks like everyone at Mermaids is looking at everyone else for who to blame.

Ewan Somerville is very much not in the pro-trans camp. He had a remarkable career as a student journalist selling stories to the nationals, a lot of which were about efforts by trans activists to close down free speech on campus. But he is quite young so that might have given him an "in". I still think it's more likely that the whistleblowers at Mermaids approached him, simply because they knew the Telegraph would publish the story, and he was one of the main people writing about this issue.

nilsmousehammer · 06/12/2022 09:42

Helleofabore · 06/12/2022 09:39

And then encouraging children to see their parents as the enemy if they don't affirm, affirm, affirm.

Haven't we seen an example of this over on the 'Girl got a haircut' thread?

A poster is very keen to frame any interaction, even a polite question, as an 'confrontation', 'harassment' and 'attack' and pleading for posters on MN to 'leave children alone' implying that to merely ask them a question is going to cause them life long harm. And telling children that any reasonable questioning of their behaviour is hatred, phobia and they are wishing you dead.

This extreme positioning of any reasonable action, this polarisation, goes hand in hand with encouraging children to see their parents as the enemy.

No wonder our children have such poor mental health. If they are not immediately affirmed in any of their statements about themselves, then obviously their parents hate them. They are not learning to interrogate their own thoughts and perspectives.

They're internalising the adult's own issues which include splitting, (everything is all good or all bad), fear of conflict, and lack of resilience to cope with uncomfortable emotions, and enmeshment in the child's life and emotional state to the point where they are unable to separate their own feelings and needs from the child's.

The therapists need to start with the adults. The kids aren't where the problem is.

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 06/12/2022 09:44

ResisterRex · 05/12/2022 22:37

Latest:

archive.ph/2022.12.05-202903/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/05/mermaids-refuses-let-staff-see-report-former-chief-amid-safe/

"Mermaids is refusing to let staff see a report into ousted boss Susie Green’s leadership because there are not “safe spaces” in which to read it^."

...^

‘Heated and hostile’ calls

Further whistleblowers have now come forward. A second insider told The Telegraph: “Staff are very upset and outraged that our well-being is being used as an excuse to bury the report, when clearly it’s all about Mermaids wanting to protect what’s left of its reputation.”
The source said calls between senior management and staff on Monday morning “got very heated and hostile” and staff “don’t believe the report will ever see the light of day”."

Oh that's priceless. Suing the language of The Woke to justify not being transparent and honest. Where are we in this Woke Tennis Match?

Staff: You are incompetent?
Susie Green: Now sit down dear, I'm in charge
Staff: Well, splutter well, well, splutter you, you aren't TRANS!!!
SG: OK, given what's coming, I'm off
Staff: There we go! Now, show us the report
Matty (Caring) Maddocks: Oh sweeties. It will scare you (and will be leaked by one of you backstabbing bastards). We need a Sacred Safe Space . Then we can hare it with you
Staff: Erm.... you is all meanies, meany meany meany

TinselAngel · 06/12/2022 09:46

Ewan Somerville has written many articles on all of this for the Telegraph. He's the only journalist so far to write about trans widows and the spousal exit clause.

Helleofabore · 06/12/2022 09:49

The therapists need to start with the adults. The kids aren't where the problem is.

Absolutely.

nilsmousehammer · 06/12/2022 09:50

The think is we don't know if Maddocks' concern for staff in processing is that it may distress them beyond coping (and is concerned about staff mental health, which suggests the resilience and wellness of the staff is of very serious concern and responsibility for the possible outcomes of distressing them is more than Maddocks can risk) - which is a whole shebang of employment mess right there.

Or

Whether Maddocks' concern is for the behaviours and reactions of staff and the safety of the future of Mermaids should the staff react badly. And the inability of containing such behaviours and reactions, or managing to hold boundaries.

Birdsweepsin · 06/12/2022 09:53

This is interesting. Mermaids income was way higher than expenditure in 2021.

So that's why Susie Green left
TheYummyPatler · 06/12/2022 09:57

Or both @nilsmousehammer.

It’s perfectly possible that there are huge issues about staff resilience and employment practices that select for people who are vulnerable and then failing to support them (or actively working in ways that encourages problems) and that they might respond in ways that very publicly make mermaids’ position even less tenable.

In fact, I suspect both are likely. Staff who cannot cope with information that doesn’t reinforce their personal views and preferences whose response may well be making death threats in twitter and other deeply problematic behaviour. Both issues are prevalent in the TRA community.

Clymene · 06/12/2022 10:08

Oh no, definitely not pro trans!I think Ewan's a phenomenal journalist and I'm so impressed at how he kickstarted his career while still a student.

I just wonder if it's a friend of a friend but I'm sure he's exceptionally good at networking as any successful investigative journalist must be.

I didn't know he'd written about the exit clause @TinselAngel. Good to know.

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2022 10:21

TheYummyPatler · 06/12/2022 09:57

Or both @nilsmousehammer.

It’s perfectly possible that there are huge issues about staff resilience and employment practices that select for people who are vulnerable and then failing to support them (or actively working in ways that encourages problems) and that they might respond in ways that very publicly make mermaids’ position even less tenable.

In fact, I suspect both are likely. Staff who cannot cope with information that doesn’t reinforce their personal views and preferences whose response may well be making death threats in twitter and other deeply problematic behaviour. Both issues are prevalent in the TRA community.

I'm currently reading a book about adventure making and how this encourages resilience and as we've moved indoors our resilience levels have declined and our mental health issues have rocketed.

This sounds very hippy but actually it's less so than you might think. It's more about how putting yourself outside your comfort zone as a child builds your ability to cope. And it's all about why schools go on adventure weekends away. I've a couple of friends who work at primaries who say how it's dead interesting in terms of which kids cope and which kids defy parental expectations. They find that kids being away from parents and not confined by parental expectations often means the shyer less confident kids get most out of it, whilst the cocky ones with pushy parents can often struggle most.

This book talks about stuff like Ade Adepitan and how he did a bbc show called 'beyond boundaries' and how that was beneficial not only to him in helping him but also improved the lives and mental well being of numerous viewers by inspiring them to go beyond their comfort zones.

All the talk of safe spaces strikes me as being the opposite.

If the theory about needing the outdoors for our mental health and needing to build resilience through being outside your comfort zone, the Mermaids would potentially be the perfect case study in what happens if you do the opposite.

It would also explain a lot about how mental health over the last couple of years, particularly with kids has plummeted.

Its fascinating to consider.

MooMoi · 06/12/2022 10:22

www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/save-the-children-response-to-charity-commission-report

The link above is to Save the Children's response to the CC SI on them.

It's worth noting that they also commissioned an investigation by an external party before the official SI was launched and they published the report long before the SI made any finding. (Report linked on the page above)

Being generous, it's possible that the EDI covers some specific staff related grievances that wouldn't be appropriate to share in full.

However I'm amazed that they haven't engaged properly with staff and stakeholders. It really speaks to me of their governance and decision making processes.

If they really can't share the report (which I'm surprised by) they need to have begun an investigation that engages all stakeholders and has a wide reaching remit (going beyond the SI). This needs to be underway at this stage. Organisationally they need to understand what exactly has happened and how to address it. Staff and stakeholders need a clear understanding of this process and a timeline.

An organisation whose first instinct is to conceal bad news has no business being near a child or vulnerable adult, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of safeguarding.

it's trust, if charities don't have it they're sunk. For trust there needs to openness. This is all a massive red flag.

As an aside, staff speaking to the Telegraph makes perfect sense to me. They might read the Guardian and feel a closer affinity with that paper but they need an outlet willing to be critical of Mermaids. The Guardian isn't keen to criticise what it considers to be the 'good' charities. Until the Amelia Gentleman pieces I don't think they would have found a home there.

DameMaud · 06/12/2022 10:25

rogdmum · 06/12/2022 07:12

I don’t think they are worried about staff reaction at all. I think that following Friday’s report in the Telegraph, they know they have a whistleblower so if they release the report to staff, it will get leaked to the Telegraph. The safe space stuff is just their convenient bog standard language they use to hide behind anything.

This was my first thought

TinselAngel · 06/12/2022 10:28

Clymene · 06/12/2022 10:08

Oh no, definitely not pro trans!I think Ewan's a phenomenal journalist and I'm so impressed at how he kickstarted his career while still a student.

I just wonder if it's a friend of a friend but I'm sure he's exceptionally good at networking as any successful investigative journalist must be.

I didn't know he'd written about the exit clause @TinselAngel. Good to know.

Having worked on the spousal exit clause article with him, I think it's likely he'll have been speculatively contacting Mermaids staff.

Beowulfa · 06/12/2022 10:38

I was particularly annoyed by the reaction that "it's the awful right wing press" making these claims.

It was the Daily Telegraph that broke the MPs expenses scandal in 2009; ie proper old school journalism exposing shameless behaviour. Did all the lefty woke bros dismiss the story at the time, because it was presented by a right wing publication?

nilsmousehammer · 06/12/2022 10:41

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2022 10:21

I'm currently reading a book about adventure making and how this encourages resilience and as we've moved indoors our resilience levels have declined and our mental health issues have rocketed.

This sounds very hippy but actually it's less so than you might think. It's more about how putting yourself outside your comfort zone as a child builds your ability to cope. And it's all about why schools go on adventure weekends away. I've a couple of friends who work at primaries who say how it's dead interesting in terms of which kids cope and which kids defy parental expectations. They find that kids being away from parents and not confined by parental expectations often means the shyer less confident kids get most out of it, whilst the cocky ones with pushy parents can often struggle most.

This book talks about stuff like Ade Adepitan and how he did a bbc show called 'beyond boundaries' and how that was beneficial not only to him in helping him but also improved the lives and mental well being of numerous viewers by inspiring them to go beyond their comfort zones.

All the talk of safe spaces strikes me as being the opposite.

If the theory about needing the outdoors for our mental health and needing to build resilience through being outside your comfort zone, the Mermaids would potentially be the perfect case study in what happens if you do the opposite.

It would also explain a lot about how mental health over the last couple of years, particularly with kids has plummeted.

Its fascinating to consider.

It is indeed! I don't suppose you could name the book could you?

It ties up with a lot of research on adventurous play and supervised play, and the impacts of children being risk assessed off almost all equipment and physical play opportunities, and play and activities are all adult led, adult supervised, and structured for them.

No wonder they're all anxious, adult-dependent (even as adults in the workplace) and without independent capacity to manage feelings, conflict and challenges.

It'll all hit again in a few more years when those who have been raised this way becomes parents themselves.

Also worth looking at the youth projects LAs have been providing for the past ten years or so. Places funded for vulnerable kids so often ones there is a need to reduce crime offending or being a victim of crimes, bullies and the bullied, the ones known to the local authority services through vulnerabilities and challenges or the local police. The youth workers are often people of quite strong liberal values with no authority or leadership, (much following of goals such as 'I want to be a popstar') whose accountability is whether the young person gives good feedback and is happy with the service the worker has provided.

I've heard of the issues of moving with this support into highly supported job application and interview to gain a job. One such lad managed forty minutes in his job before leaving permanently, because having met him and introduced him to what they wanted him to do, the line manager then expected him to do it. He felt unsupported and not ready, and was very annoyed at the failure of the workplace. No one had prepared him that this was not another youth project in another form where he was a valued customer, considered fragile, in need of care, and the leader and decision maker at each step. I felt he'd been rather unkindly set up by a lot of well intentioned and well paid workers.

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 06/12/2022 10:48

Ah! @RedToothBrush the Enid Blyton Effect. AKA Arthur Ransome, TH White syndrome

The loss of adventure stories and an outdoors that is accessible independently does seem to have reduced something. Go Ape etc are a poor substitute - they are organised, safe, led by adults. No real resilience required. Nor any personal safeguarding - as some of the pictures I have taken over the years show. Fling yourself off, the equipment will catch you!

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2022 11:07

It's 'Adventure Revolution' by Belinda Kirk.

It talks a lot about various studies like the ones you mention nilsmousehammer.

I should say that we are probably of this mindset more than most because DH is a scout leader, but equally he sees scouting as preparing kids for adulthood and taking on responsibilities during teenage years as part of parenting and thats very much our ethos anyway so naturally the book fits with that.

I also have massive anxiety issues and a general lack of resilience myself - my parents did everything for me and my brother as kids and I dont think that's helped me as an adult. I can see where some of this stuff would have helped me / can still help me.

With Mermaids I see this weird mix of over protective parents throwing their emotional vulnerable kids into this very adult world (and online culture) which they themselves don't readily understand nor are part of (because they are extremely naive and well meaning parents) and both the kids and parents end up unwittingly eaten alive by it because they lack the skills and ability to exist in this online world.

The search for safe spaces and controlling the world around them is born out of this learned inability and is a coping strategy rather than learning to appropriate skills over years to deal with problems in a productive way. Its almost a backlash which doesn't address underlying issues - it just hides them to fester.

Its both infantilising yet expecting kids to deal with stuff way beyond their years.

I think the issue is an unawareness and loss of the concept of age appropriateness and not understanding that by 'being kind' you aren't necessarily helping people learn crucial life skills that they need.

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2022 11:19

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 06/12/2022 10:48

Ah! @RedToothBrush the Enid Blyton Effect. AKA Arthur Ransome, TH White syndrome

The loss of adventure stories and an outdoors that is accessible independently does seem to have reduced something. Go Ape etc are a poor substitute - they are organised, safe, led by adults. No real resilience required. Nor any personal safeguarding - as some of the pictures I have taken over the years show. Fling yourself off, the equipment will catch you!

I think there is something to be said for allowing kids to fail at things but encouraging them to find an alternative solution, rather than stepping in and fixing it for them.

I don't think parents do enough of this.

There is a loss of promoting ingenuity going on and those who learn it are better equipped at life in general. That very much relates to encouragement of critical thinking.

nilsmousehammer · 06/12/2022 11:27

Also connected to the fetishising of vulnerability and the requirement of others to carefully, sensitively, go out of their way to meet needs and ensure comfort.

The trouble is, this requires society to be in two halves - the serviced and the service providers.

And the service providers have to be exceptionally resilient, self reliant, capable of high amounts of emotional regulation and able to deal with harshness - "reframe your trauma" and 'learn to cope with unwanted sex to benefit others' comes to mind. And able to be self sacrificing to an unhealthy point of view, abandoning own needs, feelings, interests and expectations of reciprocity in order to selflessly meet the needs of others.

I've always been interested - where do those who see this as an acceptable future for society think this endless supply of well trained mummies with codependency and boundaries issues are going to come from?