Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

[BernardBlacksMolluscs]

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

I do think projects as you describe jerkchicken make a difference.

In Berlin, a Palestinian psychologist, Ahmad Mansour (who was himself taken in by archaic, mysogynist beliefs as a youth) has a project (Heroes) that focuses on Muslim boys, in order to redefine their honor codes. (Basically: The honor of my sister is that she is free to make choices and this honor I defend).
Of course, you can only make such a project if you first analyze the respective problem at hand. Mansour has quite some things to say about the unhelpfulness of some politicians, who out of ‚political correctness‘ hinder progress on this front.

I don‘t think anyone here holds that misogyny isn’t a thing among Western men.

Too many still think that a woman lying drunk at a party or in the street is free to rape and has it coming. And courts agree, more often than not. I think we all agree how these attitudes and these judgements express and propel rape culture.

Now, in, say, Dubai, courts will say that you had it coming when you travel without male related protector (husband, brother) and some male you don‘t know forces himself into your hotel room and rapes you. You‘ll actually be sentenced, because you had sex outside marriage. And now explain to me, how living in such a society won‘t shape attitudes.

Understanding why men act in a certain way only really helps if we try to stop it. Otherwise it's a case of words and no action.

I'm sure many countries have different traffic laws, but if you go through a red light here you're going to get fined and possibly lose your car. We take driving offences seriously and visitors will quickly learn you obey that law or face the consequences.

What they learn about the rights of women is that there is a level of base behaviour they can get away with if they don't harass women with protective men.

There's no police presence disbanding groups of men acting intimidatingly or consequences if they physically assault women. Our complete disregard as a country for upholding laws that protect women is giving men, whether British born or recent immigrants, the message that they can get away with it.

There's also been chronic underfunding and staffing of police forces. Plenty of instances of burglaries, anti social behaviour etc going unresolved because there aren't enough policemen and policewomen to patrol areas and follow up on issues. Easier and less effort to deal with online hurt feelings than patrol areas where it's known men are hanging about and harassing women.

The fundamental thing though is not the men and their different cultures.

What went wrong in places such as Rotherham was that those who are in a position of trust and authority ignored what was going on. They ignored parents who were worried.

As did social services. Many of those young girls were seen as "tearaways" just because they were from an estate or single parent households. They were not protected because of prejudice. Which is clearly ironic.

That is the thing people need to ensure, that those who can do something, do actually do something. Listen to concerns and immediately and fully act on them.

That is what needs to be targeted. Because people who behave in ways that the rest of us are horrified by will always find a loop hole when one is available. If that police and agency inaction is stopped it will go a long way to ensuring we never have another Rotherham. And that's true of any group, gender, race, religion or otherwise.

No one is saying that British men can't be misogynist and abusive or that there aren't problems with policing and protecting women's rights here.

But it's frustrating that this argument keeps being repeated as a way to shut down discussion of the thread topic.

The point is that in addition to the existing situation for women here, we are also dealing with an influx of young males from countries where women's rights are non-existent. This is a specific problem that is different from other problems. Why are people so keen to brush it under the carpet?

My family are all from a mixed Hindu/Sikh/Muslim background. These discussions need to happen. It's not about racism, it's about the socialisation of men from various backgrounds who depending on the individual have beliefs about women's roles that are entitled, regressive and predatory to women and girls.
For too long accusations of racism have been used to hide the actions of predatory men. The same as now where accusations of transphobia are used in the same way.

I think this is probably quite common in many immigrant communities. They can get a bit stuck where they were when the original emigration happened. The focus can on maintaining traditions in a foreign culture. People can end up almost doubling down on the ‘traditional’. Meanwhile, in the country of origin things change, but that’s got little influence on small groups in other countries. Newer immigrants may not recognise the versions of ‘their culture’ they encounter abroad.

That’s probably as true of British ex-pats in many places as it is for people coming to the uk. Or, I guess, you see it in the odd versions of ‘irishness’, ‘Italian-ness’, ‘scottishness’ or whatever that you find in North America. Even thinking about my own family, the version of ‘scottishness’ that seems footed in the Canadian bits of the family (and almost distilled to hilarious stereotypes in the youngest generation), just aren’t representative of 21st century Scotland. My aunt and uncle (and actually her parents too) moved over there in the early 70s and they’re oddly stuck in that decade, culturally (well, at least in terms of their ‘scottishness’). It’s just a holding on to some bits as the rest of their life changed in a new country. And then passing that down the generations.

And exceptionally good discussion from all. Thank you to all posters for your experiences. I hope those in power read.

But this is massively missing the point.

Isn't there a belief that the authorities and people who could have intervened in Rotherham failed to do so because it was evident that the perpetrators were of a certain culture and it was deemed 'too difficult' to address because they were afraid of accusations of racism?

It went on so long because of the culture and religion of the men responsible.

Isn't there a belief that the authorities and people who could have intervened in Rotherham failed to do so because it was evident that the perpetrators were of a certain culture and it was deemed 'too difficult' to address because they were afraid of accusations of racism?

I think this possibly is true for politicians and social workers who didn't intervene. I think the police, who ought to be first, second and third line of defence in such situations, just saw the girls as worthless and didn't want to bother but grasped onto this as an easy excuse not to act. Noticeably, concerns about community relations haven't had any impact in reducing targeted stop and searches.

Yes that was the overwhelming thing I got from reading about it. It was also suggested by the one victim who waived her anonymity, apologies as I forget her name but she very vocally said that police ignored it because she was a poor kid from an estate.

Different situation but look at the disappearance of Shannon Matthews compared to the higher profile disappearance case we aren't allowed to mention for fear of a telling off. One very poor, estate family, multiple children, multiple dad's, estate, benefits. The other, very well off, two parent married family.
The press treated both cases very differently even before we discovered the truth regards Shannon's mum's plot. There wasn't the blanket coverage, nor the same reward offered by the media.

Their is a bias involved with victims from lower classes. Especially those from single parent families.

i’m sorry, but the idea that the police wouldn’t pursue a case because the alleged criminal is from a BAME background is completely laughable, and also offensive to the communities who have been systematically harangued and harassed by our police, over a period of decades.

What happened in Rotherham was an absolute scandal. Those poor poor young girls - written off by pretty much the entire system bar a few astute SWs as “white trash”.

The trouble is, it’s NOT just these “poor young girls”. Grown-up women right here on MN have been told they should’ve said no more forcibly/hit him.

At what point do we collectively say “I don’t fucking think so”?

When Theresa May gets groped window-shopping in Maidenhead? When Rishi’s wife gets groped browsing in Harrogate?

Im sorry but this is just really disgusting. The most creepy, inappropriate men with 0 respect for women that I have ever met have been white British men. My husband and his circle of friends and family are from an Asian country that you’d probably look at and judge and assume they’re sexist. They’re actually all extremely respectful around women, far more so than any British men I know. if anything, their culture means that they’re pretty protective of women and very aware of not crossing any boundaries by accident or causing any offence. I’m sorry but this IS racist and extremely ignorant and I’m horrified that MN are allowing racial hatred to be incited in this manner.

@Hooverphobe sorry - I was commenting specifically on Rotherham.

I haven’t RTFT but can say that there are many parts of the world that I have no desire to visit, and hope my DDs won’t want to visit either. Also a few cities in Europe where I have experienced sexual harassment that I haven’t in London (Paris by far the worst - many incidents of exposure in broad daylight in public places as well as frightening experiences at night). However I have also been seriously sexually assaulted by a British man local to me.

These bastards are everywhere.

But it doesn't have to be one or the other does it? There can be a combination of factors involved .

Are you saying it is offensive to even point out that the men were of Pakistani origin and even ask the question of whether that fact played a part in the fact there were people in power who were afraid to speak out it? The report of the Rotherham Council is explicit in the fact that certain councillors were reluctant to speak up because of the ethnicity of the men involved and is explicit in the fact that some of the failings of social care.

Prof Jay's report said that while ethnicity did not impact on the way front-line staff dealt with cases, it did affect the wider picture, with some staff in children's social care saying they were "advised by their managers to be cautious about referring to the ethnicity of the perpetrators" in reports.

Why are you making this discussion about something that it most definitely isn't?

Careful @shasha21 , complaining about racism will get you deleted around here nowadays.

Sorry I meant to link the entire article.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28951612

Prof Jay's report said that while ethnicity did not impact on the way front-line staff dealt with cases, it did affect the wider picture, with some staff in children's social care saying they were "advised by their managers to be cautious about referring to the ethnicity of the perpetrators" in reports.

I've read the Ayaan Hirsi Ali book. Two things struck me as interesting. One was that most European countries aren't collecting data on the ethnicity of offenders, making it difficult to draw conclusions or form policy on the topic. Another is that the victims themselves would often play down the ethnicity of their attacker for fear of being seen as racist.

as an Asian woman, I don’t need a (presumably) white person to get offended on my behalf. Nobody is saying that every Asian man is violent or abusive. But there are obviously elements of south Asian culture that are deeply patriarchal and misogynistic. It’s silly to claim otherwise.

these are important conversations that need to be had, without people like you trying to shut it down.

I suspect in the Rotherham case, it was actually easier and more palatable for the authorities - including the police - to claim that the fear of being called racist was the driving factor in their lack of response. It gave them a reason - and a response that felt more comfortable (being ‘empowered’ to act whatever the cultural background) as well as the more comfortable version of flagellation (we’re just too scared of being seen as racist).

At the same time, it allowed everyone to sweep the misogyny, and particularly the one filtered through class, under the carpet. They didn’t have to talk about the way that the police, social work, education, society at large view poor, white girls in the care system. They didn’t have to address how victimhood for women is always filtered through lenses that seek to blame women.

Instead, they got the appearance of a tough, soul searching conversation while avoiding the bits they really don’t want to talk about.

That doesn’t mean that specific cultural factors weren’t at play too. Or that they don’t matter. But it is worth considering that the misogynistic behaviour of some immigrant men stands out merely because they haven’t learned which British women it’s ok to target. Their awful, misogynistic stereotypes don’t distinguish between middle women and those too easily categories within some dreadful notion of ‘underclass’. And that makes it easier to recognise as a problem.