Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

[BernardBlacksMolluscs]

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

Exactly this. Racism and transphobia are both used as a cover to stop women noticing certain patterns of male behaviour and calling them out.

As for the women arguing that culture doesn't matter, why don't you hop on a plane to a non-Western country and try walking around a major city alone? I think you'll find it's a bit of an eye-opener, and in no way comparable to the amount of harassment you'd experience in, say, Manchester or Exeter. One culture's attitudes to women are not equal to another's, and it's not racist to notice.

You're right, BBM, and it's interesting to reflect on why. Though many feminists assert that women should be allowed to wear what they want, there's no getting around the fact that covering yourself from head to foot signifies your allegiance - or forced allegiance - to regressive ideas of women's position in society, that male desire is a woman's problem, that women's bodies are essentially shameful and that controlling women's sexuality is central to the 'honour' of a family or group. It's not bigotry to find the messages behind the clothing abhorrent, just as many might find someone parading around in a white hood or wearing racist symbols on their T-shirt abhorrent.

If it helps, I wear a headscarf for religious reasons (not Muslim) and fully agree with you.

Sorry your posts got deleted.

It is also a shame that people end up trying to control what women wear (either their own fathers and families do or those objecting to head coverings) , rather than what men wear or do. As if women are always the victim in a sense.

Of course men try to control women they want power and it's easier to control women than it is to control other men ...because a man might thump you a woman won't that's what it comes down to, plus the human instinct to align yourself with whoever has the most power, most of it just follows from that

I think I can safely say that I’d also have a problem with my children’s teacher turning up dressed as a klansman! But yes, taking it away from religion and into the realm of an expression of extreme ideas is a good way to look at it I think

@BernardBlacksMolluscs what about (and I broadly agree with you, I am just trying to work out my thoughts) not a KKK hood but a purple-white-green scarf/Harry Potter mug etc? Because some people consider the same things equally offensive. I don't btw but that's why I think its important to be 1100% clear about where the line is and why.

100% not 1100 percent obviously

Best not to ban clothing at all, even the Jesus and Mo tee shirts. We tend to manage this pretty well in the UK. The law permitted sikh men not to have to wear motorbike helmets years ago for religious reasons from the 1970s. As soon as we start banning things it becomes difficult where to draw the line.

I am not particularly happy that the nearest state primary to my house has so many very little girls, 5, 6 etc in head coverings for muslim religious reasons as it curbs their ability to play and see and sets them apart from their classmates and the boys, but I respect the right of schools to take these kinds of decisions to allow it and I would prefer they were mixing with other children rather than getting no education at home. The problem comes when the majority become the minority so that I become "the other", the one who doesn't cover her head, the one whose legs are showing without having chosen to be the other, without having moved house.

Ah but I think Harry Potter is boring but fine so OBVIOUSLY it’s not a problem (joking)

I think the line has to be drawn at are you expressing a belief that endorses causing harm to yourself or others?

it can be hard to get people to accept that expecting women to cover up is harmful though, as we’ve seen on this very thread

hmm, tricky one

Can I just say that I really am pleased to see that apart from a few exceptions who have gone anyway, this has been such an interesting and intelligent debate. I don't find anything offensive here and I hope the same is true for anyone else.

Fundamentally, I think females across the spectrum of communities have realised that we are the only ones who really care about female safety. And that if we want to ensure safety, we will have to do it ourselves.

The fact a discussion can occur on here across a wide cross section of women from a vast array of ages and communities in solidarity with each other and fears we have without it descending into a bun fight is a very good place to start.

So thank you for the debate and the feeling slightly less bad for being quite worried at what may happen or is happening.

Yes, I really appreciate that we've been able to have a conversation here. We did have to fight off some posters who wanted to derail and shut us down, but after they shouted 'racist' and found it had no effect, they didn't know what to do next and went away. I take that as a good lesson - if you can ride out the name calling then they really haven't got anything else.

I mean, it's a real shame that they've taken the power and impact out of the term 'racist' but we can't let it stop us having conversations about women's rights.

I’m really torn about oppressive/repressive clothing for women - and I think (hope) I see both sides.

but, I was seething with rage/incredulity to see a young girl (about 11-ish) in full black garb having a riding lesson - it was downright fucking dangerous - never mind the cruelty of a child being dressed like that (choice my arse).

and, rage point number 2 - women like Lauren Booth who are “choosing” what so many 1000s in the UK have NO choice about. It makes an utter mockery of those brave women in Iran.

so yes, I’m torn - so very very torn because I wouldn’t want to see those girls kept off school because “we” won’t let them cover up. Or perhaps we need to go “hardline” and send MALE social workers to the house…

I was seething with rage/incredulity to see a young girl (about 11-ish) in full black garb having a riding lesson - it was downright fucking dangerous - never mind the cruelty of a child being dressed like that (choice my arse).

I'm always amazed men in these communities don't kick up more of a fuss about what young girls are forced to wear. I mean, if kids are being covered up like this, doesn't it rather imply that men have to be prevented from letching over little girls?

I really appreciate that we've been able to have a conversation here.
Same here. It doesn't seem to matter that I've worked for many years on programs helping immigrants, if I want to talk about this issue irl I would be shut down and called 'racist' for talking about my own experiences of sexual harassment, discrimination and assault. Often it's just naivety mixed with defensiveness against racism, but this quickly turns into people who have no idea what they are talking about and lead sheltered lives shutting down abused women who need to talk about the crimes committed against them. People are so blindly tribalistic on issues like this, the victims are not prioritised at all. I remember a clip being shared of a Swedish girl sitting on a plane and refusing to let it take off because a man was on it who was being deported. It later turned out he was being deported for sexual offences. I had to watch this shite being shared by people I knew, who won't have known about my court case and what happened to me. What about the victims of these men, while their champions are all patting themselves on the back for how inclusive they are for sharing a post on social media? Meanwhile they don't know anyone from these communities, don't live near them, certainly don't mix in the same social circles, and have no empathy for what it's like as a single woman or young girl having your activities curtailed by the presence of men sexually harassing them on the street, in the swimming baths, in the workplace, in their own homes. It doesn't happen to them, but multiculturalism a nice idea that immigrants are 'just like us' - which is itself a pretty racist idea. No, not all cultures are like ours, many prioritise religion for a start, and in many rights for women are worse in so many ways, legally and culturally. Yes, I believe we can have a multicultural society, but not with women as collateral damage. Thanks to the OP for starting this thread, I hope there are more like this.

so many very little girls, 5, 6 etc in head coverings for muslim religious reasons as it curbs their ability to play and see and sets them apart from their classmates and the boys
that's the whole point isnt it, hold them back & hobble them from the get go so they never get to fully express themselves, to make absolutely sure that they cant be a threat to the dominance of the men😟
if kids are being covered up like this, doesn't it rather imply that men have to be prevented from letching over little girls?
It does to us but I guess they dont feel the need to consider any implications since men are always inherently in the right compared to women & girls?😟

Pp may have mentioned it, but this is the thing that KJK got kicked out of the WPUK meeting for, wasn't it? Saying that little girls shouldn't be covered up. She got called a racist, Islamophobe, etc, and people are still using it to suggest she's far right.

It used to be less common in many places for little girls to cover - I think that's one of the dangers of pushing too hard against it, it becomes a cultural marker rather than a religious observance.

But in general - I have no issue with hair coverings - I think that is barely different than western custom. Full face covering I see as analogous to very sexualized women's clothing. So I would tend to try and treat them similarly, at least in principle.

Yes, the queen used to wear head scarves FGS.
My personal line is at giant prosthetic breasts worn to teach school children but that isn't the topic of this thread!

This is so clarifying. On the one hand, if a woman is fully covered ‘or she’ll face consequences’ then she is a victim of domestic abuse and coercive control at the hands of extremists, and we have a duty to intervene.

If on the other hand, she chooses to walk around completely covered in a society which has more evolved rights for women, then she is showing her allegiance to extremist ideology, and it should be viewed as an antisocial act of hostility and a red flag.

It is absolutely inappropriate for a teacher, in a position of influence, to choose to wear it.

If parents are keeping their daughters out of school because they insist on her wearing clothes which restrict her or endanger her during physical activity, then this is a social services matter. I don’t think it is happening at the moment, it’s hypothetical isn’t it?

Although tolerance is so important, it doesn’t stretch to tolerating abuse or denying a child an education.

I don’t think it is on the increase because people are pushing back, I think it is on the increase because regressive religious views have become more normalised in the absence of a push back. People are too scared too push back or they’ll be named as racist and socially cast out.

Although I think we should as a society resist and regression of women’s rights, I do want to bring something up though - about a pretty stable religious conservative and insular community- the Hasidic Jews. They have very strict codes of dress, lots of rules, and there have been women who left the community because they found it utterly oppressive. Although i know it is completely unfair how these women are treated in the family courts (that the children are presumed better off with their dad and the tradition, rather than being placed in the custody of their mother breaking free, who is the primary carer), I still wouldn’t want any measures to intrude upon their way of life. Do I just have double standards?

I wonder if the difference for me, is because the men also have very restricted, rule-bound, lives, what they wear, everything too, so it is not as stark as women being covered from head to toe and the men being free. Also, that girls dress in normal girl clothes until they get married. So there isn’t a thing of younger and younger girls adopting the ‘modest’ measures of grown women. I’m thinking out loud here.

I wonder if the difference for me, is because the men also have very restricted, rule-bound, lives, what they wear, everything too, so it is not as stark as women being covered from head to toe and the men being free
I'm not sure what to say about the community that you mention here, except to wonder about why there are women leaving but no men deciding to break free? (unless I've got that wrong?)

The difference for me with Hasidic Jews is that the men are not harassing and assaulting non-believer women who dare to go into 'their' neighbourhoods when they don't conform to Hasidic Jewish dress codes. Well, I believe this happens in Israel, but not in Western countries. Hasidic Jews are separatist, they don't try to convert anyone, they don't expect non-believers to adhere to their practices. I'm sure there are very restrictive and traditional roles for women, but they don't try to force these on the rest of the female population.

I watched a Netflix documentary and I remember a couple of young men leaving.