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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

980 replies

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 28/11/2022 18:43

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

OP posts:
beastlyslumber · 02/12/2022 16:48

Thoughts on maybe a blog to collate these stories? Hopefully at least we can save the thread!

Nepeta, I think multiculturalism is great when it comes to things like food, festivals, clothes etc. But when it comes to basic values about how society operates, I don't think we can afford to have lots of different cultures in the mix. I think when you have smaller, maybe religious, communities, that's okay as long as they abide by the law of the land. There are subcultures that intersect and overlap mainstream culture, and there are small communities that are somewhat more isolated, like Buddhist monks or Catholic convents, where there is some integration but communities are also somewhat self-sufficient. But beyond that, I think we have to be clear that we're a secular country, we have equality laws to protect minorities, we have rights as women to live as freely as men do.

It's scary that our rights are under attack from so many different angles.

I am coming around to the view that we need to limit immigration into the UK. I don't see what else we can do if we continue to have thousands of young males coming here. We've heard how towns and communities are being changed beyond recognition and women and girls made unsafe. We talked upthread about possible solutions, such as education programs, public awareness programs, dispersing immigrants to different places etc. But ultimately I think the most effective thing would be to limit immigration altogether. Other countries limit immigration and protect their borders, and we are an island - we cannot keep taking tens of thousands of young men every day. I feel somewhat bad about coming to this view, like it's the 'wrong' view to hold, but it's what I'm thinking.

EndlessTea · 02/12/2022 17:03

namitynamechange · 02/12/2022 15:16

Absolutely. I had a neighbour who moved from Afghanistan to Europe years earlier as a child and he was fine. On the one hand he took parcels in, on the other hand he played music very loudly a few times at night and pissed me of. Just a regular neighbour basically.
However, I will say in Afghanistan, people from Kabul might well remember "what life was like before the Taliban" when society was a lot freer for many women. For many people in the very rural, poor villages there wasn't as much social change as you'd think. Rural areas were very isolated, very poor and had seen decades of conflict even before the most recent one. Just completely different ways of life. Culture shock of all sorts is inevitable in those circumstances.

Yes, maybe the people I’ve met who gave me that impression have been urbane. I didn’t feel any cultural tension at all.

awomansvoice · 02/12/2022 17:04

we cannot keep taking tens of thousands of young men every day. I feel somewhat bad about coming to this view, like it's the 'wrong' view to hold, but it's what I'm thinking.
As I don't live in the UK at the moment, perhaps I'm a bit out of touch, but I don't understand why there is an influx of men from Albania and why they are being housed in hotels. The men and women I worked with had leave to remain, which meant they were genuine cases, usually from war-torn countries. Albania is not.
Having worked with these groups, it's obvious to me that you have to limit immigration numbers, because I've seen how much support people need. It takes a lot of time before people can integrate in any way, financially or socially, and it costs a lot of money, takes up a lot of resources, all of which are finite. The whole of every impoverished nation on Earth cannot move to the UK, it's not possible, so there have to be limits. I don't think we should only allow educated people to enter the UK, as it's not the fault of illiterate rural Afghani men, for example, that they are from that background. I don't think the right to immigrate and escape war should be class-based. That said, we have to be realistic about what can be achieved and the detrimental effects of shoving hundreds of such men in hostels and expecting them to suddenly become fully integrated citizens who embrace the #metoo movement and are pouring their money into the economy.

RoyalCorgi · 02/12/2022 17:07

The vast majority of men from Albania are having their applications turned down, though a high proportion of the women's claims are being accepted.

namitynamechange · 02/12/2022 17:14

@awomansvoice I think its to do with the absolutely glacial pace of the asylums process and the backlog. It means that people who don't really have a case are left in those hostels for a long time. It also means people who absolutely have a genuine case are left in limbo sometimes for years - impacting their ability to get jobs/education, deal with their trauma, build lives and integrate. Its shit for everyone.
I agree, immigration should be needs based not class/education based. But that should come with the understanding that people from vastly different backgrounds will need a lot of help to integrate with the UK and a willingness to provide that help. And a willingness to demonstrate what is not tolerated under UK law and culture.

EndlessTea · 02/12/2022 17:16

LangClegsInSpace · 02/12/2022 12:37

Also, I want to refute the earlier point about it being beneficial for asylum-seekers to be effectively ghettoised to help them recover from the trauma.

That's not what I said though.

The point I was trying to make is that when refugees first arrive they need people around who understand their language and culture.

There is a huge area of compromise between immediately dispersing them to the back arse of beyond in ones and twos, and ghettoising them in huge numbers for months and years.

I think I am rapidly starting to disagree with the idea that “when refugees first arrive they need people around who understand their language and culture.”.

I think the first thing they need is safety and security.

Then some record on a database so that they can hook up with loved ones they’ve been separated from.

Then a program of orientation to get them up to speed with the language, culture and customs of the host country as quickly as possible, in order that they can integrate as quickly as possible and be independent. Also advice on their asylum application and being hooked into relevant services.

I think having others around who understand their language and culture are a ‘nice to have’, not an essential priority, apart from, of course, access to interpreters and translation services.

Soothsayer1 · 02/12/2022 17:21

I think multiculturalism is great when it comes to things like food, festivals, clothes etc. But when it comes to basic values about how society operates, I don't think we can afford to have lots of different cultures in the mix
true but the things we want (food, festivals, clothes) will inevitably be used as a trojan horse for the values that those fleeing to our country will naturally want to bring with them, not blaming them....it's normal to want familiar things so that you feel safe & can settle.
It's not their fault that the values instilled in them are destructive to our culture, but their values are part of the reason their country is a place they want to flee from!

Soothsayer1 · 02/12/2022 17:29

His dad was vile, 5ft 2, yet clearly muscular to the point of looking like his arms would burst. He sat at pick up, staring and huffing at us all. Never joined the dad's. Always on his own. There were other Asian dad's there but they never spoke to him
I think his sons are extensions of him, he has purloined them to compensate himself for his lack of stature, he's let them be feral so all they can do is spread their fathers 'message' out into the society that he is excluded from (and sounds like the sons now are too)

Xenia · 02/12/2022 18:22

beastly, that was the point I was trying to make but not as well as you up the thread. As I am essentially a liberal I have no problems with particular families choosing to lead different lives whether that be children educated at home like our Queen or boarding school or faith school or privae school or whatever and all the different types of families you have in the UK from those without a TV to those children virtually plugged in all day to their phones.

I suppose I draw my line at the law of the land - so no s ex before age 16, girls in theory free to exercise their rights under the law even if their culture is forcing them into a marriage etc.

Some countries and hopefully the UK do try to educate immigrants into the ways of the place where they are now living, particularly as to the laws.

I don't think anything like enough is done to consider those who have others placed among them that then affects the original inhabitants in negative ways. Yet if we want amicable race relations in the UK we do need to listen and help those subjected to the kinds of things shown on the thread and the negative impact of large numbers of largely unsupervised young men from sexist, homophobic (and for those with mafia connections also criminal cultures). Even basic things like you are not allowed to give or offer a bribe could usefully to be told to some newcomers from countries where bribery is endemic.

LangClegsInSpace · 02/12/2022 19:56

The only way out of this would probably be to prioritise certain basic human rights above the respect for cultural values and to apply that ruling to all cultures exactly equally. The problem with that, of course, is that different cultures differ on what they view as human rights and, in particular, women's and girls' rights.

It doesn't matter what they view as human rights.

We all have the same human rights and they are protected in law.

What you have described is exactly what Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights says.

We all have freedom of thought, belief and religion, including the right to express those things. But these rights can be interfered with in order to protect public safety, public order, or the rights and freedoms of other people.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-9-freedom-thought-belief-and-religion

Soothsayer1 · 02/12/2022 21:31

The problem with that, of course, is that different cultures differ on what they view as human rights and, in particular, women's and girls' rights
I would like to reword that...
'different cultures differ on whom they view as fully human'
broadly speaking some combination of only the men or only the wealthy & powerful are viewed as fully human in some cultures

MinistryofCheer · 02/12/2022 23:07

Thanks @BernardBlacksMolluscs for endorsing posts by @pinkvelvetrose , @ReformedWaywardTeen , @awomansvoice who all suggest that their experiences have to do with ethnicity and/or religion -

MinistryofCheer · 02/12/2022 23:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

LangClegsInSpace · 02/12/2022 23:11

I am coming around to the view that we need to limit immigration into the UK. I don't see what else we can do if we continue to have thousands of young males coming here. We've heard how towns and communities are being changed beyond recognition and women and girls made unsafe. We talked upthread about possible solutions, such as education programs, public awareness programs, dispersing immigrants to different places etc. But ultimately I think the most effective thing would be to limit immigration altogether. Other countries limit immigration and protect their borders, and we are an island - we cannot keep taking tens of thousands of young men every day. I feel somewhat bad about coming to this view, like it's the 'wrong' view to hold, but it's what I'm thinking.

We do limit immigration really quite strictly in the UK. We have limited it so strictly and inhumanely that our immigration policy has led to mass human rights abuses such as the Windrush scandal and the 'hostile environment'.

The current problem is that a lot of people are arriving with nothing on small boats (i.e. illegal routes that we can't control simply by declaring them illegal) and claiming asylum. Very many of their asylum claims are genuine. Some aren't because they have come here simply for a better life. Some aren't because they have come here to engage in organised crime. Many arrive as victims of this organised crime.

Like almost all countries in the world, we are signatories of the 1951 Refugee Convention.

www.unhcr.org/1951-refugee-convention.html

Like almost all other countries we have signed up to international law that says people from any country have a right to claim asylum here. Their claim may not ultimately be accepted but they are entitled to a fair hearing.

Before Brexit we were also signed up to the Dublin Regulations which say that all EU countries are basically safe so asylum seekers can be sent back to the first EU country they arrived in, to claim asylum there. That was really convenient for the UK, with a sea and a giant land mass between us and e.g. Greece.

We can't use those regs any more, hence the diphtheria tent city in Kent and hence ludicrous notions about sending them all to Rwanda.

The latest stats are interesting. In the year to September 2022 there has been a sharp increase in small boat arrivals to the UK and we now have twice the number of asylum claims as we did in 2019. Meanwhile in the year ending September 2021, asylum claims in the EU as a whole fell by 4%. I'm not comparing like with like because the years are different. Also the effects of covid over the past two years are complex and need factoring in.

Nevertheless, those figures are startling. It seems likely that word has spread in the people trafficking industry, as well as among refugees, that the UK can no longer send people back to mainland Europe.

But even with this doubling in numbers, in the UK we still do not take our fair share of asylum seekers. In 2021 we were 18th on the list of European countries for numbers of asylum seekers per head of population.

www.unhcr.org/uk/asylum-in-the-uk.html

I have no clue what's going on with Albania so I won't comment on that except to say that countries that generate high levels of international organised crime are often the same countries that people need to seek asylum from.

The migrant crisis has no easy answers. I do believe that the current uk refugee crisis has in part been caused by brexit. But it's not a UK issue, or even a European issue, it's a global issue and it's only likely to get worse.

Sorry to be so pessimistic.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/12/2022 23:19

I would like to thank the women who have spoken about their experiences of sexual violence. Please ignore any nasty goaders who insult and malign you for speaking about your own lives. They have no moral high ground- they are just here to shout at women and I doubt they care about racism or anything else. They just enjoy sticking the boot into women for some reason.

awomansvoice · 02/12/2022 23:22

MinistryofCheer · 02/12/2022 23:07

Thanks @BernardBlacksMolluscs for endorsing posts by @pinkvelvetrose , @ReformedWaywardTeen , @awomansvoice who all suggest that their experiences have to do with ethnicity and/or religion -

What does this mean: "their experiences have to do with ethnicity and/or religion"?

awomansvoice · 02/12/2022 23:25

Do you mean the repeated assaults and sex attacks I've experienced were because I'm a white woman? No, I don't think I was only targeted because I was white, a mixed race girl of 16 was also a victim of the serial sex offender that attacked me. Perhaps you should show a little more sensitivity when talking to women about being repeatedly made victim of sexual harassment and violent attacks though, not a good look for you.

LangClegsInSpace · 02/12/2022 23:41

EndlessTea · 02/12/2022 17:16

I think I am rapidly starting to disagree with the idea that “when refugees first arrive they need people around who understand their language and culture.”.

I think the first thing they need is safety and security.

Then some record on a database so that they can hook up with loved ones they’ve been separated from.

Then a program of orientation to get them up to speed with the language, culture and customs of the host country as quickly as possible, in order that they can integrate as quickly as possible and be independent. Also advice on their asylum application and being hooked into relevant services.

I think having others around who understand their language and culture are a ‘nice to have’, not an essential priority, apart from, of course, access to interpreters and translation services.

You will get nowhere with any of that without people around who understand their language and culture.

LangClegsInSpace · 03/12/2022 00:06

namitynamechange · 02/12/2022 17:14

@awomansvoice I think its to do with the absolutely glacial pace of the asylums process and the backlog. It means that people who don't really have a case are left in those hostels for a long time. It also means people who absolutely have a genuine case are left in limbo sometimes for years - impacting their ability to get jobs/education, deal with their trauma, build lives and integrate. Its shit for everyone.
I agree, immigration should be needs based not class/education based. But that should come with the understanding that people from vastly different backgrounds will need a lot of help to integrate with the UK and a willingness to provide that help. And a willingness to demonstrate what is not tolerated under UK law and culture.

All of this.

EndlessTea · 03/12/2022 07:31

LangClegsInSpace · 02/12/2022 23:41

You will get nowhere with any of that without people around who understand their language and culture.

That is not true. Not everyone seeking asylum comes in a big block with people from their home country and is greeted by an already established group. I’m thinking of, say people from Sierra Leone where they rarely are placed with anyone else from home, IME.

Translators understand their language and generally will understand their culture. Cultural understanding is not a priority when you have just fled for your life and are seeking asylum.

EndlessTea · 03/12/2022 08:33

When I said “a program of orientation to get them up to speed with the language, culture and customs of the host country as quickly as possible, in order that they can integrate as quickly as possible and be independent.”

I am thinking for it to be pretty basic. How to go to the shops and buy stuff, a bit of language to get by. Independence to get going. Knowing that bribery is not acceptable in the UK, haggling isn’t really either, a basic understanding of women’s and Children’s rights in the UK and what is illegal and might lead to criminal prosecution of social services interventions, that we have civil servants, not overlords and how to complain about behaviour figures like the police, that sort of thing.

It wouldn’t make sense to heavily invest in someone’s adjustment to the UK way of life, unless their application is successful and they get leave to remain.

i think it is fine for people/families (I would consider one unit) to be placed in threes, fours or fives around the country, with some basic orientation like that.

I don’t think it does any good to have larger groups placed together. The impact on the resident population is too damaging and it doesn’t bode well for their long term integration if their application is successful either.

EndlessTea · 03/12/2022 08:35

*or social services interventions

MMBaranova · 03/12/2022 09:25

Thank you to so many who have made thoughtful, informed and decent posts to this thread. Consideration of the impacts on women and girls seldom seems to rise above the simplistic in political discourse.

Torunette · 03/12/2022 10:57

As I said up thread, I'm from a multi-ethnic, multi-heritage background, as is my DH. I've also lived and worked in other countries, including in the ME.

I personally believe we all, in Britain, see "culture" through a very strange lens. My experience has taught me that "culture" is largely geography (as is religious expression). People in certain places do certain things because those things make sense where they live.

Take Bedouin facial veiling: that makes total sense if you are female and live in either the Arabian or North African desert. In fact, no matter who you are, you are kinda daft if you don't do it if you find yourself in the desert because it stops your nose burning off.

The saying "When in Rome ... " is sensible, but not because one way of doing things is more "superior" to another, but because a particular way of doing things in one particular area tends to be the best way of doing that thing.

Not eating a big, cooked breakfast is a sensible idea if you live in a hot country, as is not drinking huge amount of beer -- which is why Southern Italians, Greeks and Arabs drink coffee for breakfast and tend to consume more spirits (hence the Gulf obsession with whisky).

No joke, almost every cultural thing you can think of has its roots in a specific geography. Accents, for example, tend to reflect the landscape of an area: the more hilly, the more singsong -- which resulted, for example, in Welsh male voice choirs. What you build, and how you build it, and what you build it with also creates culture and how a human thinks and perceives the world around them: dry stone walls don't tend to last in hot countries, for example.

And this does affect all manner of expression. The Christian Church would not have survived in England, Wales and Scotland if it had mandated praying on the floor. It would have just been too damn cold. By contrast, cool places to reflect/pray work in hot countries, hence the reverse situation with Islam.

Indeed, I'm pretty convinced that England, Wales and Scotland have historically over-produced in terms of literature because the climate (cool evenings and endless rain) meant that people stayed indoors and where just in the right atmosphere to start jotting down stories.

What the issue is now is that we have huge numbers of people bringing their way of doing things from one place to another very different place, and those ways of doing things don't work -- and it is causing problems.

But because we seem to view "culture" as some sort of synonym for race, ethnicity or creed, no one is actually saying "Mate, that aint going to work here because #practical reasons."

I mean let's be blunt here. The reason why generally we have different attitudes to women in public space in this country is because, unless you are fairly wealthy, most of the females in a family will have to work outside the home at some point in their lives, which means they need to be safe in public space and free from harassment. For the majority of British families, females working outside the home is a matter of financial survival. It is today; it was in the 1950s; it was in the 1850s.

It's not that women are in public space because our culture is somehow "superior" per se, but because that is a necessity for how most families survive in Britain. If you have a family where you have one adult male and five adult females, and none of those women can go out to work because of the sheer harassment and aggression on the streets, your family is going to face poverty.

In short, harassing women and girls in public = creating spaces for poverty and deprivation to take root.

I think we need to start talking about "culture" in this practical way. It's not a clash of ideas or beliefs; it's about the way we do things in Britain to ensure the survival of our families, and making it clear that the way you ensure that survival in another very different place is not going to work here.

Soothsayer1 · 03/12/2022 11:10

What the issue is now is that we have huge numbers of people bringing their way of doing things from one place to another very different place, and those ways of doing things don't work -- and it is causing problems
Very true, and men from a strongly authoritarian and patriarchal culture are bound to try and impose their culture on us because it's their inherent Modus operandi. Furthermore I think the more difficult and dangerous the journey the more they expect a big reward at the end of it, it becomes a mythic quest where they slay the dragon and claim the princess.