Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

[BernardBlacksMolluscs]

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

It’s interesting that the word ‘assimilation’ makes me clutch my pearls a bit.
But I do agree that English classes and so on would be a good idea, as long a crèches are provided.

I don’t like the idea of women being brought to the UK to be married into such disempowering situations. Having no education, living with in-laws, being so young, knowing nothing about how to get by in the UK as you described BeastlySlumber. I would think it isn’t just the lack of English and literacy that is the problem, but a lack of education generally and lack of life experience. I think part of assimilation needs to be learning that women in the UK have choices and what those choices are.

This thread has reminded me of growing up (60s/70s) around children and grandchildren of Irish immigrants and of being aware, although I didn't understand why, that some of my female friends enjoyed far less freedom than I did. I also remember having a strong sense that their parents didn't like / approve of me, even though I was painfully well behaved.

Of course there were differences from today - these were white skinned, English speaking families - but I see many parallels too, e.g the power of religion, and the prejudice and open hostility they had to live with, which extended into the time of The Troubles, and which made parents even more protective.

From what I've seen, I'd say that those friends' children are fully assimilated although there weren't the same language differences to navigate which probably makes a difference.

I also remember having a strong sense that their parents didn't like / approve of me, even though I was painfully well behaved.

Upon reflection, Floisme, why do you think they disapproved of you? Do you think they were worried you would encourage their daughters to turn their backs on their roots?

Pre teens I would say it was largely about my family's perceived heretical ways, e.g. my mum didn't make the sign of the cross when we passed a Catholic church, and we didn't have crucifixes around the house. Then it intensified when we reached our teens and I started wearing short skirts and make up and going into town on a Saturday afternoon. So yes, I'd say it was largely a fear that I'd lead their daughters away from God and get them Into Trouble (euphemism at the time for getting pregnant). Which was kind of funny because some of these friends were much wilder than me, it was just that their parents had no idea.

But after a few years, and certainly after a generation, the people in these closed, self sufficient communities are British citizens.

What you are saying is that the rights of some British women can be completely discarded as long as it doesn't bother the rest of us. That some British men can abuse women with impunity, as long as it's the group of women whose rights we have decided don't matter. That some British children can be deprived of an education as long as their parents' community keep to themselves.

Hard no.

This is a good website:

'Citizenship and human rights are non-negotiable.'

onelawforall.org.uk/

I think 'assimilation' is a US term and has unfortunate associations with the Borg.

The UK equivalent is 'integration' which sounds a lot better.

Also EndlessTea, I think my friends' parents had some genuine grounds for their concern, not so much about our godless ways but because they perceived - maybe correctly - that I could get away with things when their daughters wouldn't. There was still a lot of anti-Irish sentiment at the time, and it got even worse during the Troubles. So thinking about it now, I can understand their protectiveness and have a lot more sympathy for them than I did at the time.

I'm curious about the way this mentality works.

Does FGM not matter if it happens to women whose politics we disagree with?

Or FGM does matter but women whose politics we disagree with should STFU about it?

Or does FGM not matter at all and it's racist to suggest it's an issue?

Incidentally, Carrie Johnson was one of John Worboys' victims, aged just 19. Is she allowed to speak up about that (she waived her anonymity while campaigning against his release) or should she STFU about it because tory?

Just trying to work out the rules.

I bet at the time Floisme it was sort of bewildering ‘what have they got against me?
And only later you realise it isn’t personal - it’s your background.

When I was growing up, I wasn’t aware of any anti-Irish sentiment- I seem to remember having conversations at school about our heritage- not anything deeper than the equivalent of ‘what’s your favourite colour?’ and most kids seemed to have at least one Irish parent or grandparent so perhaps that’s why. I did hear a lot of Irish jokes, but - iirc, a lot of them would be told by Irish people.

This is long and I haven't read the full thread but this is something that has affected me deeply for nearly two decades.
I lived in an area that was an ok place to live. Then the kosovo war began and the refugees came. I don't know if many women came but in my town i only saw men. They were put into bedsits in my town. I lived near some of the bedsits and was a teenager when they came. I used to have to walk past the bedsits to get to my school bus stop.
They would shout and come up to me saying 'sexy sexy' and things like this while I was in my school uniform.

Then it got worse. I was walking to the bus stop and one of them grabbed my hair which was very long and started smelling it and rubbing it on their face. I was so scared & felt disgusting but not sure what to do.
Eventually it scaled up and more refugees eventually came not just from Kosovo but Albania as well. I got my bum pinched almost every day. I avoided leaving my house as much as possible. Once I was walking along with my friend. I weighed about 7 stone and was 16. A man tried to pick me up and put me in his van. My friend punched him and we got away. At the time you could not say anything. The anti 'racism' thing was being heavily driven forward. If you dared speak up you were threatened with being a racist.

Now in the same town there are still hundreds of men hanging around except there's more than ever and they are from many many different cultures but all seem to share a disrespect for women. They all do the same things. Still calling out in the street. I still got followed. I was followed two years ago by a man in a van while I walked into town. He kept driving really slowly next to me shouting hey hey give me your number. I tried to get away by crossing the road and turning around. He turned his van around and continued towards me. I was so scared. Eventually I knew an alleyway he couldn't drive down and ran down it. I've had terrifying experiences in taxis. I never ever get a taxi now alone.
I had so many problems. It wasn't just me I remember my hairdresser moved salons because it became too dangerous to walk from the train station.

I was also threatened with rape and being murdered by three men who held me against a car. I was very calm and shouted back in their face to let me go and and they let me go. On another occasion I was threatened with rape and I ran into the nearest public space and because I knew the police do not help, my dad walked up with a weapon to threaten the guy with. When the guy saw me saying loudly yes come with whatever you can he's threatening me, he scarpered. All of these events are in the day time in case anyone wants to think it only happens at more vulnerable times.

I don't condone vigilante moves but my family felt there was no choice in our area after a while. Literally no one cared. The police certainly didn't. As time went on local people moved out and now no one I know still lives there. I grew up there in the same house. It was sad to see everyone go but eventually finally I too moved very far away and its really only now I see the damage done to who I am and my fear of men from a different background which is really sad.

I'm now in a very safe 'white' village. And I am still constantly looking over my shoulder but I know it's highly unlikely someone will attack me at lunchtime here! It's been really awful growing up like that. You can't speak about it. People call you a racist for saying it's because of where they're from. But it really is a cultural issue. They often believe westerners are either 'easy' or should be targeted because their culture says anyone not from their background is an acceptable target.

I'm hoping the younger ones who have gone through the British school system will at least not agree with their fathers views on how to treat women but I actually think the women here are continuing to be oppressed in some cases.

It does leave its mark and I'd never recommend raising a dd in areas where you find these men in large groups as a result! Obviously I know not all men are this way but unfortunately I never got to meet any kind decent male refugees/immigrants. I have most definitely been affected by it all though.

Yes it was a bit bewildering, especially as I was, like I'd said, a very well behaved child. But I never really questioned it at the time, it was just the way things were.

I think the anti Irish sentiment depended on where you were. I wasn't aware of it in our own neighbourhood but I can remember getting the bus into town and seeing graffiti. I think it was partly why going into town on a Saturday became a flashpoint - they were worried.

I've come round to thinking that a lot of what I perceived at the time as old fashioned sexism and illiberalism was actually at least partly about fathers trying to protect their daughters. I don't know how much of that crosses over into today - this was 50-odd years ago and I'm mostly just thinking out loud.

pinkvelvetrose apologies, I didn't mean to talk over your post. I hadn't refreshed the page so hadn't seen it.

Sorry to hear that @pinkvelvetrose . So upsetting. And infuriating to viewed as racist if you complain.

Yes, it’s become a bit of a cliche, to be ‘radicalised by motherhood’ in these parts, but I think young women are blithely unaware of what’s ahead for them - I certainly was. Dads know what men are like and how much their daughter’s life will change if she isn’t properly shielded.

@pinkvelvetrose . that sounds incredibly difficult

"some very righteously offended people insisting that to be white and British is to be inherently racist."

Youre lying. No-one is saying this. They are saying that to make racist remarks is to be racist.

@pinkvelvetrose

Thank you for starting this thread @BernardBlacksMolluscs it's a great discussion, and thank you @Floisme for your insightful posts.

We should be able to talk about conservative patriarchal religions and woman-hating cultures on a feminist forum.

I just listened to this, it's a very long, very nuanced discussion between three women who have left ultra-conservative religions:

podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/161-women-leaving-faith/id1461524178?i=1000537602183

Unless you intrinsically see some types of human being as worth less than others, it is a problem for the host country, because we should not accept a single forced marriage, a single case of FGM, a single rape or sexual assault on British soil. These are crimes here and they should always be treated as crimes. There should be no class of unprotected women!

What you're describing is the practice of turning a blind eye to the abuse of women because they are seen as other, and not like the rest of us, and it is what we have been already doing for decades. I have already posted on this thread about my classmates being married off at age 16 (to older men, naturally) and no-one in authority intervening unless the girls explicitly said they were being forced!

We should not write off abuse as cultural, or as girls making "lifestyle choices". If principles won't sway you, realise that the abuse of girls (that maybe you do value) in the wider communities of Rotherham, Rochdale and the rest was the eventual result of ignoring the abuse of brown women and girls.

@pinkvelvetrose that sounds traumatising.

pinkvelvetrose I am so sorry. Thank you for sharing that with us. It's important that we hear and acknowledge testimonies like yours.

Reading a testimony like yours pinkvelvetrose, makes me reflect upon the times I have had people talking to me, with their eyes lowered and their cheeks flushed, and I felt really awkward, uncomfortable that they are about to say something racist and wondered how I was going to extricate myself from the conversation.

I now realise that they knew what was going on in my head, but they were chancing it, in order to just express a story like yours, and because they could sense my aversion, they would often imploringly mumble something like “it’s just the way they are all there - sitting on the church steps” completely unable to convey the full story because I was visibly trying to get away.

I would still think they were probably racist, but would leave with this uneasy sense that they had something important to say. It doesn’t make me feel good about myself to think of it now.

I’ve long thought there really has to be a better way of placing asylum seekers than having loads of people from the same region being placed in the same town. There’s no strong impetus to integrate and it can completely change the character and atmosphere of the place.

It would be really hard work, but worth it, to place people in a more dispersed way, into every town instead.

Refugees need familiarity and people who speak the same language when they arrive here because they are traumatised.

But we shouldn't have loads of asylum seekers waiting months and years for a decision. It shouldn't be about where to place people but how to help them move on. Things like allowing them to work and rent property while waiting for a decision. Perhaps many of them would also prefer not to be sharing a hotel with 100 other single, traumatised young men, all trying to survive on £40/week.

I've been thinking some more about my own ancestors: also Irish but who came to England around the time of the famine so several generations before I was born. I don't know much about them other than that they arrived as single men, lived with brothers, cousins and other male acquaintances, and worked in construction. They appear to have eventually married local young women and integrated so successfully that their descendants - my parents - were looked at askance by more recent immigrants.

So this is far from being the first time we've had large numbers of single men from a different (if less distant) culture arriving in a neighbourhood. I hope I don't sound like I'm minimising anyone's experiences here, but I find looking back and seeing patterns and parallels can be helpful.

The big difference to my mind isn't that my male ancestors were angels, it's that they had jobs - bloody gruelling ones too that probably left little time for making trouble. Contrast the current influx of young men with far too much time on their hands.