Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

[BernardBlacksMolluscs]

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

Thank you @BernardBlacksMolluscs for insisting this important subject continued to be discussed. I was the original OP and have only just had my account sorted. I also feel the need to apologise, the amount of times you have been deemed racist for restarting this thread has been astonishing!

I know this has moved on a lot from the original post but I feel the need to clarify a few points that were being asked of me that i couldnt answer because of my account problems:

1. people found it hard to believe I let myself be assaulted 3 times. why didnt i call the police or tell security? This was part of the issue I was trying to raise and probably was clumsy in my writing........ the second assault happened bang in front of security, he could see me pushing him off and just looked away. The 3rd, I asked the door man not to let him in because he was following me, he didnt at first but 2 minutes later he was in the bar. My point, in plain sight. No one cared, and call the police, REALLY?
2. You should have punched him. Would have loved too but not only did I not want my night out to end with a criminal record, how would I guarantee my safety, security going to walk me to a taxi when they dont even care a woman is being touched inappropriately, think not
3. I am racist and posted what i did to incite hatred. Not true! far from it
4. You shouldnt have said hello or told him your name. Maybe but, i am a friendly social person and why would i not respond to someone saying hello to me, wouldnt that have been discriminatory?!
5. Finally a certain poster took the opportunity of the original post being deleted to just spout absolute lies. Inciting hatred?

The title of my post could have been worded better on reflection I agree and apologise for any offense this caused anyone.

The whole point of the original post was to ask how, as women we should deal with this. I asked because in my 40 odd years of age have never ever experienced such behaviour.

The new post has been a very interesting to read. I completely agree that there needs to be some education for these young single males coming into our communities, they are never going to successfully integrate if not. And this racist, hatred inciting individual whose actual day job includes making sure migrants and refugees have services available to them when they arrive is going to go away and try and make sure something along the lines of education is considered.

Lastly, those who and try and shut down free speech of a legitimate issue facing girls and women, you are half of the problem shame on you

There are two separate issues

1. Groups of young men without wives, mothers etc to control them often are pretty dangerous every where at all times. They can be wonderful (I have 3 sons), full of energy and all sorts but en masse without women keeping them check they can be dangerous.
2. Some cultures coming into the UK are appallingly seixist. i remember my son telling me about some lunch times at school (he was the only white boy in the class) where everyone on the table thought men should be in charge at home and they were all homophobic. I joked to my son that he was being inculcated in social mores of rural Pakistan which in a sense was true. (I live in one of the most mixed areas of London and my borough has been minority white for years and not just minority white but with large numbers of people who are first generation or second generation so no time for the tolerance of gays and equality for women value to rub off yet)

And I worry that just one of the side effects of the defunding of social enterprises is that there is less and less potential for cultural integration

@lifeturnsonadime

How far nationalities assimilate is a completely separate issue from the question of whether your wording indicated first generation. If you label people “Algerian” or “N.African” that rather implies that is where they are from.

Second generation immigrants plus born in France are French. Doesn’t matter how involved they are with their communities, legally their nationality is French. They may never have been to their parents’ or grandparents’ (or one parent/grandparent’s) home country and may speak no language but French.

Your latest post indicates that you don’t regard immigrants as truly assimilated if they stick to their communities; that assimilation necessitates adopting the “belief system” and “cultural values” of their country - (whatever the hell that means). Whether that applies so strongly to the French in S.Ken and the British on the Costa is not clear. But it does at least explain your previous posts.

god almighty the racism accusations get tiring

ah! you made a semantic slip

therefore I can write off all the things you said (some of which were inconvenient for me and my world view) as racist!

go me!

I know.

FFS. But I'm not quite clear when I'm walking around an area where there are lots of immigrants how I can tell which ones were born here and which ones weren't.

I'm sure that this is an inherently racist position too.

I'm reasonably sure @Mirabai would be happy enough to blame your imaginary racism on your upbringing

but of course the upbringing of random men has no impact on their behaviour and attitude to women, none at all

I know I have made another slip because the sons of immigrants are not immigrants, they are the same as all other men and boys born in the country. Using the country of origin for these men is problematic even when it is known. Where I went wrong was describing my harassers as Algerian in the first place. It was racist not to call them French.

I think it would be really really interesting to ask in those communities how the sons of migrants see themselves first.

I think it would be split. At least that's what I've experienced. And I think the more you move down the generations the more likely the answer will be British first.

And presumably then it is wrong to refer to the Rotherham grooming gangs as Pakistani, this is irrelevant as they were not first generation migrants. They are just British men.

How does that help anyone?

As far as this language issue, the confusion is that a nationality can also be an ethnicity. And it's perfectly valid to use those words either way, you have to go by context to understand which applies.

I think this is sometimes less clear in the UK and Europe than in places where the vast majority of the population is not the same ethnicity as nationality. In Canada for example you really have no one who is ethnically Canadian. You have mebers of various First Nations people, who were members of political entities that pre-date Canada, and you have people with other, often mixed, backgrounds. French or Scottish or Ukrainian, say. Most people know their ethnicity, but first generation immigrants obviously have a cultural background that is not, in fact Canadian. My Jamaican or Brazillian friends are Canadian citizens, but it's totally obvious that they came through differernt school systems, grew up with different politics and culture around them, and so on.

People can clearly be Scottish or English ethnically, and there is such a thing as Spanish or French culture that is not the same as Chinese or Maori culture.

I'm not sure where that ever became controversial. Nor when it suddenly became controversial that moving between very different cultures can be quite difficult and have all kinds of problems associated with it.

One thing I find really interesting about this is the way identity politics seems to want to have it both ways. You absolutely can have these internal identity groups that have to be recognized as "communities," but somehow when you have a whole group of people who come from the same geographical, ethnic, or cultural community, they are absolutely only individuals.

It was a sort of aggressive belligerent contempt, as if I had no right to be treated as a human being
they are angry because they think that as men they are entitled to more status than any and all women, and yet you are freely walking around, not owned & controlled by a man as they think you should be
they will be scanning for women who look like good candidates to take ownership of, probably target young single mothers, get her pregnant, dominate and crush her existing children so that his genes prevail

Marcuse?!!

someone's showing their age as well as their bigotry

Then i suggest you stop being racist

Actually I think it’s a very interesting point - which raises further uncomfortable conversations.

Second-gen who’ve not embraced British culture, but instead are still operating in “Pakistan village mode”.

Meaning - not only are new arrivals struggling with acceptable Western values - but their offspring are too.

Second-gen who’ve not embraced British culture, but instead are still operating in “Pakistan village mode”
of course, that means they can combine the benefits of a modern technologically advanced culture, but still enjoy thier favorite sport of crushing and destroying women
it's just like british people going to spain but still wanting sausage and chips I'm sure

may I suggest we ignore the recent joiner to the thread? responding to them is unlikely to take the thread in any good directions and quite likely to get it deleted

Sounds like a plan

Assimilation to British values in terms of equality under the law, of course yes. This is where the left go too far and alienate people, no it is not OK to accept a cultural view that women who are not modest are asking for sex, or that western women are whores.

Also referring to the sexual abuse by grooming gangs of white working class girls deemed unimportant by the police and social workers as a far right dog whistle implies you don't believe it happened. Not just in Rotherham but Rochdale, Bradford and other places. And it was driven by a belief system that White girls have no honour. This is now well documented.

I am wondering if some people are a bit squeamish about putting the cultural sexism and racialised misogyny against white women under the spotlight because it is shameful and embarrassing- how backwards it is- rather than because of a genuine belief that all discussion is racist or will lead to a dangerous backlash.

A can of worms some people don’t want opening.

Your latest post indicates that you don’t regard immigrants as truly assimilated if they stick to their communities; that assimilation necessitates adopting the “belief system” and “cultural values” of their country - (whatever the hell that means).

Well yes. To be assimilated means to adopt the values and beliefs of your adopted country. That means, in the UK, gay rights, equality in general, the idea that girls should be educated, are free to marry or not marry who they choose, that women can work and earn their own money. If immigrants don't adopt these values as their own, then no, they are not assimilated, and as we can see it's a problem.

I'd argue it also has an effect of degrading and eroding those values for all of us, if we say that it's fine for immigrant communities here to hold different values. We should be fighting for those values because we depend upon them, not saying all values are equal or that our values don't matter. If immigrants don't like British values, then they shouldn't come here. Coming here and then setting up Sharia law and carrying out FGM and making women unsafe to walk in some area of Birmingham should not be acceptable.

I think people feel squeamish about saying, actually, in these areas our values are better.

In the areas of women's rights, gay rights, equality of opportunity, worker's protection, our values are superior to those commonly held in many parts of the world. Therefore it is entirely reasonable to demand that people comply with them if they want to live here.

Yes it seems somewhat ‘unBritish’ to say it so baldly and unapologetically.