Girlguiding Brownie leader raising concerns

[AJNorthWest]

Hey all, I think I'm in the right place for this.

I have been a Brownie leader for 10 years now, since I was 18, and was a Brownie myself as a child. For the last year or so I have been more aware of the takeover of gender ideology and seen it seeping into every single-sex area you could think of.

I have recently challenged Girlguiding on their "inclusion policy" and their self-description of themselves being a "girl-only trans inclusive space". It turns out that this has been their stance since 2018. So since 2018 Girlguiding has been a mixed-sex space, without calling itself that, and leaders and parents are unaware of this.

I sent a long email to the Volunteer Support team asking for some clarification on their language, their stance, and safeguarding. They have now responded, without addressing my concerns, and asked me to answer a hypothetical scenario (presumably to prove I'm not a threat to Girlguiding and the members) within 2 weeks otherwise they will "take further action".

I'm not really sure what the point of this post is other than to seek some common sense. I'm feeling very alone in this, but I know others have the same concerns, it's just really difficult to speak out!

For anyone who would like to back me on this or add their input to my response, drop me a message - I'm gathering concerned leaders and parents together in the hope that our numbers will get the point across.

Addition: I'm sure many parents and leaders have been aware of it for a long time, my point is that it's not made clear in any of the training. I have done the 'Safe Space' training multiple times since 2018 and it hasn't been mentioned once.

Sadly OP, the GG were captured very early on by groups and individuals determined to remove the rights of girls to safe single sex spaces and to use an all women / girls organisation to proselytise and gaslight girls into believing that sex is not real and that their role is as support humans for sad men and boys.
The grip they have on the organisation is toxic and, as you've seen, any challenge to this is DARVOd (deny and reverse victim and offender) - hence their question to you.
This is the type of leader they promote nowadays (until the publicity became too embarrassing):

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4408927-safeguarding-issues-in-the-girl-guiding-movement

If you search threads on here you'll unfortunately find that those brave enough to raise concerns are often pushed out and have even been reported to the police for raising safeguarding concerns. There are several threads both in FWR and AIBU on the topic. Good luck.

Girlguiding know that many parents are against this. I’ve written several emails and been rebuffed.

My girls only remain in Girlguiding because it has been so important for them and because the local leaders are great.

I’d be more than happy to help back you up and be part of an effort to rescue Girlguiding from this nonsense.

I asked one of our Rainbows leaders what they would do if a transwoman joined as a Leader and wanted to help out an overnight camp. She essentially said they wouldn't be able to do a camp as they couldn't say no to the transwoman without being in trouble.

asked me to answer a hypothetical scenario (presumably to prove I'm not a threat to Girlguiding and the members) within 2 weeks otherwise they will "take further action".
Nice diversionary tactic there.
Try this article dated April this year.. You could try a diversionary tactic yourself and ask how their review and update of policies is going.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4531851-Girlguiding-dilemma?page=6&reply=116837852
OP, check out this thread- it mentions Katie Alcock, a guide leader who was chucked out for raising these kinds of concerns, eventually they settled with her
-in short, you are not alone in raising these issues, but it would be worth finding out what others have done before re inventing the wheel

this has been going on by stealth for ages and many parents are aware. My DDs still go to guides because they love it. They are not however going on any camps / overnights.

For anyone who would like to back me on this or add their input to my response, drop me a message - I'm gathering concerned leaders and parents together in the hope that our numbers will get the point across.
This is a bit naïve. You don't know who anybody on the internet is.

I removed my children from GG on the basis of this and the whole "posing with a weapon" debacle, and my real concerns about the responses from HQ.

Ooops, sorry if that sounded a bit short.
You might be better off to contact Sex Matters to see if you and they can use your treatment as a timely follow-up to the Katie Alcock case.

It did but I understand your point. I know it doesn't always help to seek support online because, as you quite rightly said, I don't know who you all are and I'm not naive to stranger danger 😅. But it feels really difficult to find people in my real life who are willing to discuss this. I appreciate your concern though.

I did contact Sex Matters before I sent my concerns to GG, they put me in touch with a couple of other leaders which I've found really helpful! I might send them their response too though - thanks for the suggestion.

I have nothing real to add, OP, but it was exactly this issue that got me involved in this fight. My children are adult, neither they nor I had ever been involved in GG but I just could not believe the organisation was so utterly stupid. This was before I had learned words such as captured.

Sadly they are far from alone.

Good luck OP - and thank you for trying!

I'm a former volunteer. I wrote to them about Katie Alcock, essentially saying they were discouraging people from raising legitimate concerns. I know I was not the only one. As long as parents and women volunteers are prepared to put up with this they will do nothing. Subs are rising because "In the past few years, the Girlguiding membership has reduced by a about a quarter, from around 500,000 to nearer 370,000." (source is their website) This is blamed on the pandemic and a shortage of volunteers - some truth to that but membership is not recovering to former levels. They still do not recognise that concerns about the lack of proper safeguarding deters volunteers and discourages parents.

OP are you aware of David Challenor? I believe it was him (now in prison for a horrific rape of a child) and his male born child who now identifies as Aimee, who were heavily involved in influencing GG trans inclusive policy. The fact they haven’t revised their policy even after the truth has come out about David Challenor is extremely worrying. I have written to them often but they are not interested in safeguarding girls.

AJ, please be very careful with what you post here: you’ve made yourself identifiable to Girlguiding (unless there are multiple Volunteers in the same situation - not just Volunteers, 28 year old [Assistant] Leaders [allowing for the fact people don’t always make that distinction outside Girlguiding-specific spaces]). The Code of Conduct for Volunteers includes what’s effectively a non-disparagement clause. Which you need when your organisation is an ableist racist shitshow that’s abandoned its founding principles 🤷‍♀️ Selectively applied, naturally, but I know someone whose social media postings contributed to the permanent withdrawal of her membership (in her case, posting about her mental health issues).

If you don’t get back to them &/or they don’t consider your answer acceptable they will [almost certainly] launch an investigation into you - which may mean suspension then or as a consequence. If suspended you’d be expected to atone for your sins (ie for questioning their wisdom) & produce reams of documentation to prove you are not Evil Transphobe Of Doom. If they’re satisfied they’ll let you return; if not, in the bin with you - which can be appealed, but would you want to at that point? (I say “almost certainly” as I’m not blessed/cursed with the sight; but there are some patterns one can predict.)

Wanting to stay for what Guiding - as opposed to Girlguiding - can & should be is understandable. Staying for the girls. (especially if you work with vulnerable girls &/or in a deprived area); staying because otherwise a Unit or Units will close; staying because you’d feel you were letting other people down; staying because a Guide is [part of] who you are: all of that makes sense. But if you want to stay, you have to dance to HQ’s tune - to them “girl-led” is a nonsense to go on funding bids (though in fairness some Units really do take it seriously). They don’t want to hear there are issues with their marvellous plans. (Hence the no-longer-so new Programme being so dire. 🤦‍♀️)

If you don’t get back to them &/or they don’t consider your answer acceptable they will [almost certainly] launch an investigation into you - which may mean suspension then or as a consequence. If suspended you’d be expected to atone for your sins (ie for questioning their wisdom) & produce reams of documentation to prove you are not Evil Transphobe Of Doom.

I wonder if that is what happened when issues are raised about some of the cohort of 'male bodied' personages who have infiltrated involved themselves with GG. For whatever reasons; which beg a question or two.

Or, do those on high in GG just reserve this reaction for the women who are trying to make sure safeguarding is not thrown aside?

@Cailleach1

Girlguiding don’t apply their processes evenly when it comes to women & allow egregious abuses of power by senior volunteers to go unchecked, so…

A group for Girlguiding Members - adult volunteers & parents of girl members - who want Girlguiding to scrap their policy on Male Self ID www.facebook.com/groups/3779463675613640/permalink/3779465942280080/

@Believerinbiology could you point me in the direction of these threads, please? Do the concerns all relate to raising concerns re inclusion policy? I got excluded (and my two daughters too) for raising concerns about things far more basic - discrimination against disabled children, risk assessments so bad I thought it would leave people uninsured (which obviously puts individual leaders at huge personal risk, not to mention that people might not be able to quite rightly claim on isnurance in event of incident), basic checks such as criminal records checks not being carried out on volunteers etc..

@AJNorthWest have you got an update pls? Did they kick you out for asking if they intend to keep girls safe?

@anyolddinosaur how did they respond?

@NitroNine "Which you need when your organisation is an ableist racist shitshow that’s abandoned its founding principles 🤷‍♀️ Selectively applied, naturally, but I know someone whose social media postings contributed to the permanent withdrawal of her membership (in her case, posting about her mental health issues).
If you don’t get back to them &/or they don’t consider your answer acceptable they will [almost certainly] launch an investigation into you - which may mean suspension then or as a consequence." Do you have experience of this or do you know those who have experienced this? I'd be very interested to hear what happened to you/ those you know as this all sounds remarkably familiar.

It's so sad. I loved guides ans did so much (my group did as much outdoors stuff as the scouts, wasn't just craft and singing or whatever.)

I meant for my girls to go through the levels but pulled them out due to this (and told GG HQ. They must know.) And due to the change in curriculum to girlify it.

They are loving scouts now but I am so sad that that space for just girls isn't there.