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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguiding Brownie leader raising concerns

86 replies

AJNorthWest · 23/11/2022 10:19

Hey all, I think I'm in the right place for this.

I have been a Brownie leader for 10 years now, since I was 18, and was a Brownie myself as a child. For the last year or so I have been more aware of the takeover of gender ideology and seen it seeping into every single-sex area you could think of.

I have recently challenged Girlguiding on their "inclusion policy" and their self-description of themselves being a "girl-only trans inclusive space". It turns out that this has been their stance since 2018. So since 2018 Girlguiding has been a mixed-sex space, without calling itself that, and leaders and parents are unaware of this.

I sent a long email to the Volunteer Support team asking for some clarification on their language, their stance, and safeguarding. They have now responded, without addressing my concerns, and asked me to answer a hypothetical scenario (presumably to prove I'm not a threat to Girlguiding and the members) within 2 weeks otherwise they will "take further action".

I'm not really sure what the point of this post is other than to seek some common sense. I'm feeling very alone in this, but I know others have the same concerns, it's just really difficult to speak out!

For anyone who would like to back me on this or add their input to my response, drop me a message - I'm gathering concerned leaders and parents together in the hope that our numbers will get the point across.

OP posts:
DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 05/01/2023 18:13

I’d love to be able to send my Guide-age daughter to a single sex group.

My Nanna was a GG in the 1930s and I have her trefoil badge, my mum’s early 60s badge and my 80s badge in a frame together.
My daughter could’ve been a 4th generation guide if the organisation hadn’t lost its safeguarding marbles.

LoveCillian · 05/01/2023 18:17

I left Guiding over this issue after being a lifelong member and A Guider for 30 years

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 05/01/2023 18:39

I wonder how many leaders/assistant leaders they’ve lost over this? I don’t suppose we’ll ever know but it seems utterly batshit that an organisation that relies on committed, reliable, responsible volunteers won’t listen to the concerns that those volunteers have given about safeguarding.

NitroNine · 06/01/2023 19:19

I’m not sure @Beamur - Girls Brigade, [England & Wales] is now mixed-sex going on their policy docs (Scotland definitely is). They’re also team Where possible, transgender children and young people should be able to use the sleeping, washing and toilet facilities for the gender they identify with. However, some transgender children and young people may not feel comfortable doing this and so alternative arrangements should be made. No matter, as ever, what the girls are comfortable with: they are mere props!
Catholic churches, at least, would welcome a group that’s clear you can’t change sex. Girlguiding’s Orthodox Jewish Units won’t have had to worry about a male attempting to gatecrash because they’re all closed Units (ie open only to members of the Jewish faith) but the new Programme & general attitude of Girlguiding might see space & resources made available. Mosques as well - Scouting is quite big in the Muslim community; Girlguiding just wants to look diverse.

@waterwitch
TBH, even with the need for Girlguiding to budge up a bit & WAGGGS to accept any such new organisation I suspect that’d still be an easier route. For lots of volunteers there’s an attachment to the ideology behind Guiding - as opposed to the one that’s overtaken Girlguiding - & to get them to return to anything like their previous level of commitment you’d need a draw like that.

tadjennyp · 06/01/2023 23:44

iloveholidays1 · 04/01/2023 23:59

@tadjennyp did they mention their condom policy at safe space training too? Given the penises that might be present at camps. But no training about how to spot if a girl is actually being abused/ raped when she is having condoms handed out by her guider, aged 13.

No, not at all. I think once they have come to you it's already too late. They want to be safe 'next time'. There is no way a girl would be planning to have sex and come to you to ask for protection.

I think I would also leave. Rainbows doesn't bother me nearly as much, but when they all hit puberty, I would be very uncomfortable. I also volunteer with the scouts but there is no underhandedness there.

Cherryblossoms85 · 06/01/2023 23:53

This is why my DD will be joining beavers. At least they have processes in place and AFAIK on camps it's all managed pretty carefully.

CraggyIslandTouristBoard · 07/01/2023 07:49

Alexandernevermind · 05/01/2023 00:02

GG got lost up their own arses with their be kind mantra. I've had children in both GG and Scouting, and Scouting is imo much safer. From what I've seen, Scouting do very much welcome girls into the group, but have very strict safeguarding procedures for camps.

They may have strict safeguarding procedures to separate boys and girls but I’ve been told that their policy is effectively the same when it comes to anyone identifying as trans. Eg a male-bodied trans girl would still be allowed to share sleeping accommodation and showers with girls. This has put me off putting my daughter in Scouts.

CraggyIslandTouristBoard · 07/01/2023 07:58

ZeldaFighter · 05/01/2023 11:24

I'm not a lawyer but the Equality Act protects "people undergoing gender reassignment" from discrimination. I think setting up a single-sex space like that would immediately lead to legal proceedings for discriminating against trans people.

I am a lawyer and fortunately this is incorrect. There are exemptions in the EA that allow the provision of single sex services in certain circumstances, which can cover the exclusion even of people holding a Gender Recognition Certificate. Unfortunately fewer and fewer organisations seem willing to apply them, having been captured by the trans lobby, and/or fearing accusations of transphobia.

iloveholidays1 · 07/01/2023 16:19

ZeldaFighter · 05/01/2023 11:24

I'm not a lawyer but the Equality Act protects "people undergoing gender reassignment" from discrimination. I think setting up a single-sex space like that would immediately lead to legal proceedings for discriminating against trans people.

So Girlguiding does have lawyers, and if these are competent should know that what you describe isn't the case. However, Girlguiding very, very clearly either don't understand or refuse to comply with the Equality Act. I saw multiple girls subject to disability discrimination. One parent complained and the response definitely showed the above. They refused to make reasonable adjustments. They thought all that discrimination meant was treating everybody the same - that isn't what discrimination is. For example, giving a blind child instructions written down and saying that isn't discrimination because you gave all the other children written instructions and refusing to, for example, read them to the child - is bollocks.

I saw a Tweet from EHRC pulling Girlguiding up on them misquoting the EA. Girlguiding claimed to post the protected characteristics protected under the EA, yet changed them to suit their own agenda. They literally changed the law and pretended it was actually the law. twitter.com/EHRC/status/1045277847336747008

I'm pretty sure @agnesbadenpowell presented a counsel opinion to Girlguiding about the matter and they chose to ignore it.

If you're wondering about if Girlguiding is really anti-discrimination, here's some quotes from their own audit. It seems trans inclusion is all they really care about in terms of equality.

"A Ranger was called the n-word in a unit meeting";

"A Rainbow was told by another girl that she didn’t want to hold her hand because she is dirty (referencing her skin colour). The parent was too worried about backlash to raise this with the leader. The same girl was kicked by a different girl using a racial slur towards her."

"One girl was excluded from a group because they didn’t know how to deal with diabetes. They said it’s a medical condition, we can’t deal with it.” – disabled volunteer

“I experienced exclusion from my unit multiple times because of my disability. I have been told not to go on trips because it is not safe enough.“ – disabled Ranger

“One leader made jokes about my disability – she kept calling me slow-processing.” – disabled Ranger.

“The new programme is very prescribed and set, there is no ability to support children who cannot partake in these skills or activities.” – disabled volunteer

“Activities are planned without considering the safety and ability of people with disabilities to partake in them.” – disabled Ranger

“I wish I could be more part of influencing what Girlguiding is doing. I feel sometimes our voice doesn’t count.” – disabled Ranger

"A few participants reported witnessing that prospective volunteers are not called back or told in their first unit meeting not to attend again because they don’t fit in the organisation."

"A few disabled Rangers stated that their main challenge when joining Girlguiding was the lack of diversity and knowledge/sensitivity around disabilities, as well as inaccessible activities planned by groups."

"A disabled Ranger said that they have experienced aggression from leaders, that leaders wouldn’t listen to their needs and that the leaders were then offended when participants wanted to change units."

"A disabled Ranger felt isolated, because other girls started ignoring her and the leader didn’t intervene: “It made me feel very excluded, like they don’t want me there.”

"A disabled volunteer was told multiple times not to come to unit meetings because they were not “the right fit”. Another disabled volunteer was told she couldn’t do the leader’s training because she wasn’t “fit to do so”."

"Some disabled staff fear that they might be first in line to be made redundant because of their disability."

“Currently the emotional labour to educate peers and input in policies is resting on those members with lived experience of exclusion and discrimination.” – disabled young leader

“I am feeling confident in advising others on certain disabilities but basic training for greater inclusivity and also awareness on matters beyond (dis)ability should be mandatory” – disabled volunteer

"Volunteers report no or inadequate guidance from HQ on EDI issues and feel it is down to individuals to address inequalities. There is a general sense of lack of support in how to protect girls from discrimination or when working with people who experience marginalisation, in particular regarding disability and trans inclusion. Volunteers are uncertain who to contact for support."

"Most volunteers want a centralised point of contact to get best practice on EDI issues."

"A disabled volunteer mentioned not having received any replies from HQ employees when making suggestions on inclusivity and assisting with disabled volunteers."

"A LGBT volunteer mentioned that someone raised a complaint against her and her partner for being LGBT trying to get her excluded from activities. She said that she didn’t receive any support from HQ in handling this"

"Many staff of colour were surprised that they were not interviewed or consulted when an incidence of racism was investigated. While the conclusion of the investigation was communicated with the organisation, many staff participants mentioned a lack of trust in the process."

"In general, a lack of transparency and uncertainty around the process of how complaints are dealt with in Girlguiding as a workplace have been communicated."

“Many parents don’t disclose if their child has accessibility requirements, because they are scared we just wouldn’t take their child then."

“There should be compulsory targets for each district and division to implement greater diversity and inclusion measures. All leaders should be aware what they should do and how. You are not in Girlguiding unless you are a fundamentally good person but people need to be taught what they are doing wrong.” – disabled volunteer

ZeldaFighter · 07/01/2023 17:06

@iloveholidays1 that is truly horrifying. Incident 1 about use of the n-word had me raging and it just got worse. I actually help out with Scouting and we liaise with the GirlGuiding women and I have found them all to be honourable, decent, hardworking, caring women. Equality and safeguarding need to be taken seriously by everyone though!

AJNorthWest · 20/01/2023 09:34

Thanks for all of your responses - it's clear that there are many, many leaders and parents who have the same concerns. I've also heard from a few women privately who have received an almost identical email after raising similar concerns.

Here is a quick update on where I'm at with it:

  • I emailed my concerns in a comprehensive, rather extensive email
  • They responded in a way that did not address any of my concerns, and gave me a scenario, a deadline to respond to that scenario and a threat of "taking things further" if I did not respond in time
  • I spoke to a lawyer, Peter Daly (he has given me permission to share his name) who has dealt with this before, and he wrote an excellent response letter to the Chief Exec. Within that letter he pointed out their discriminatory behaviour towards me and my gender critical beliefs (as protected thanks to Maya Forstater). He asked them to answer lots of questions in relation to their response and their lack of response to my original concerns
  • She has responded (admitting that the level of volunteer support I received was perhaps "not sufficient", which is a bit of an understatement. One of the things she said in her response was the suggestion of a one-to-one meeting with the Chief Commissioner for my region and the head of the Safe Practice Team

I have not responded yet to the Chief Exec. I plan on suggesting a meeting with herself, with not just me but with a group of leaders and parents who share the same concerns and have been palmed off with the same response. I think it is important that Girlguiding listen to our voices. I suspect their approach is to pick us off one by one, but a group may have a bigger impact. For this reason, they may not agree to meeting a group, but that would say a lot in itself.

So, if you have raised concerns and have been palmed off, if you've been too afraid to raise concerns for fear of you or your daughter being kicked out, if you are a leader, ex-leader or parent of a girl in Girlguiding and you would be interested in attending a meeting with me - please send me a private message. If you are not keen on attending a meeting but you'd still like your voice to be heard, please message me - maybe we could take some written statements with us as well.

Girlguiding Brownie leader raising concerns
OP posts:
BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 20/01/2023 09:46

I think the group meeting is an excellent idea - makes it much harder to dismiss as one-off or minority concerns. Good luck.

IcakethereforeIam · 20/01/2023 10:00

@AJNorthWest thank you for doing all this. My kids have aged out of guides and weren't interested in taking it further. I'd be very dubious about then going with the situation as it stands atm.

I know you have a lot on your plate, but please consider asking people to sign and share the following petition to strengthen the Equality Act.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4722618-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-2

Obviously, feel free to ignore.

AJNorthWest · 20/01/2023 10:04

I've already signed it but thank you for sharing it!

OP posts:
Needanewnamebeingwatched · 20/01/2023 10:11

Well done, amazing work 👏 🙌 👍

TheHarpySings · 20/01/2023 11:12

Hi AJNorthWest, I’m an ex volunteer with a daughter currently in Brownie. Have tried to send you a PM but am not able to for some reason, but I am interested in joining.

gmmm · 20/01/2023 11:23

Well done AJNORTHWEST. You are very brave - and organised.

I pulled DD out of Brownies soonest when I realised what was happening there within GG.

The guide leader posing with her gun & fetishist clothing did it for me…

KnickerlessParsons · 20/01/2023 11:53

I've replied on your other thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4724285-have-you-raised-concerns-with-girlguiding-join-me?reply=123237558&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I'd be happy to support and join in with any in person approach to GGUK.

Ex Brownie Leader and ex District Commissioner - I resigned over this matter, before I was sacked for my public comments. I couldn't bring myself to approve REN forms where men were present at an event and I was unable to call this out to parents, and raise this as a risk, or do anything to mitigate the risk.

inigomontoyahwillcox · 20/01/2023 11:58

I don't have a child in Girlguiding anymore (she was a brownie but left years ago) but just wanted to say BRAVO for not letting this go and pursuing it legally.

7Worfs · 20/01/2023 12:01

OP, might be worth contacting media at some point (unfortunately only a few would touch the subject).
It’s a blunt tool but imagine the headlines: “GG CEO refuse to meet with parents and volunteers over safeguarding concerns”.

KnickerlessParsons · 20/01/2023 12:08

Have also messaged you now too.

KnickerlessParsons · 20/01/2023 12:30

This is going to sound "ageist", and it probably is, but in the area where I volunteered, the average age of Leaders (Rainbow, Brownie, Guide and Ranger) was probably mid sixties - we had a couple of Leaders who were 80+. They are still there I think.

Most of the Leaders in my District were still living in the bygone age where women didn't work outside of the home, and weren't really up to date with the huge change in the workplace and the larger world that's taken place over regarding inclusivity and diversity etc. They hadn't really changed the way they "Guided" for 50 years, in some cases!

I had so many heated conversations with them about things such as a doctor without a first aid cert isn't an appropriate first aider, and that being a doctor doesn't necessarily mean you are up to date with first aid techniques, or about what "including" a child in a wheelchair really means... I could go on. It used to really frustrate me!

Transparent2 · 21/01/2023 10:51

Beamur · 05/01/2023 14:08

GG were perfectly legally safe in excluding boys and men, regardless of identity. Changing this was a choice based on - I suspect - a genuine, if misguided attempt to be inclusive.
I help out with a unit and enjoy doing so, but am fully aware that my personal feelings are not consistent with GG policies. I toe the line as long as it's in theory only. I will leave if the unit admits boys as Guides or men as Leaders. It's their choice as an organisation to do this, but not something I would be comfortable with.
OP - if you want to stay in Guiding be very careful what you say. The people in charge currently have doubled down and are wedded to this approach. They would rather see volunteers leave than deviate. Whilst the outcome of cases with Maya Forstater and Katie Alcock have clarified that it's fine to hold GC views in law, GG policies are very clear on whom GG welcomes now.
Their website has been updated and says that GG is a single gender organisation not single sex. The guidelines around residentials are better than they were when this was first introduced. But be under no illusions about your views being listened to.

If GG is now a ‘single gender’ organisation, it raises the question what is their policy on transboys? They are obviously girls, but apparently not ‘female gender’. Does GG exclude them as a matter of policy, or are GG not actually ‘single gender’ as they claim?

Beamur · 21/01/2023 12:14

Transboys and kids NB but female at birth are still eligible to join.

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