Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Guardian on Mermaids

93 replies

zanahoria · 17/11/2022 17:12

It took them a while but here we go

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/17/mermaids-why-has-the-trans-charity-been-in-the-news

OP posts:
RoyalCorgi · 18/11/2022 13:25

The list of things the article doesn't mention is longer than the list of things it does. Another notable absence is any mention of Green taking her child to Thailand on their 16th birthday to have their penis removed. Surely this would be of interest to Guardian readers? Particularly as the reason she went to Thailand was because the operation was illegal in the UK, and was subsequently made illegal in Thailand.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/11/2022 13:28

That was as far as the guardian could get to a puff piece given the current shit show mermaids have inflicted on themselves

and as for this from Susie Green

it’s just this assumption that a cisgender outcome is better than a trans outcome

what, accepting your body as it is, not undergoing radical surgery, lifelong medication and spending all your time wondering if you’re successfully fooling people that you’re a member of the opposite sex? I’d say that is better Susie, yes

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 18/11/2022 13:29

Interesting that she mentioned chest ironing. There's no functional difference, the difference is who does it (racial) and why (to protect girls from sexual exploitation). Chest ironing is abuse while there are a million excuses for (white) adults who promote breast binding.

www.sussex.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/caa/child-abuse/breast-ironing-flattening/ "In most cases, the abuser incorrectly thinks they're behaving in the best interests of the child. They believe flattening the breasts will make the child less 'womanly'." Spot the difference, eh?

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 18/11/2022 13:54

it’s just this assumption that a cisgender outcome is better than a trans outcome

It's funny what language does to people. When you say "trans outcome" then "cisgender outcome" sounds exactly the same. Harmless and neutral and vague. When you say "double mastectomy / orchidectomy" then of course everyone assumes the "cisgender outcome" is better because when wouldn't it be? So of course she didn't say that. And the interviewer didn't ask.

That's the power of euphemism.

SheWoreARaspberryBeret123 · 18/11/2022 13:58

ControversialOpening · 17/11/2022 17:40

Owen Jones must be throwing the world's biggest tantrum

That happens pretty much every day.

Right 🤷🏿‍♀️

BatCheeseIsFine · 18/11/2022 14:12

it’s just this assumption that a cisgender outcome is better than a trans outcome

Well it's certainly better than a trans outcome for large numbers of children who we know would otherwise have worked through their discomfort about their bodies as they went through the natural body and brain maturation of puberty. Having gone down the puberty blockers and social transition route they can then become unwell or unhappy "trans" people, who have high surgical complication and mental ill health rates, or deeply regretful detransitioners. We know that's happening, that's exactly why a "trans outcome" is not something to unquestioningly promote at all costs, but to explore and delay to make sure it really is the best outcome for that person.

It's not that a "cisgender outcome" is automatically better. It's just that it is likely to be better for the individual in a significant number of cases.

FrancescaContini · 18/11/2022 14:21

Please can someone use laywoman’s language to explain “cisgender outcome”?

Does it just mean - growing up into the adult versions of the body we were born with??

TheKeatingFive · 18/11/2022 14:21

Yes

FrancescaContini · 18/11/2022 14:26

Oh.

So is the use of this phrase the usual attempt to bamboozle everyone with complex-sounding words that actually mean something we already understand very well?

So years ago my grandmother would be beaming with pride at her young adult grandchildren and remarking what a great “cis-gender outcome” they all were??

TheKeatingFive · 18/11/2022 14:30

So years ago my grandmother would be beaming with pride at her young adult grandchildren and remarking what a great “cis-gender outcome” they all were??

😂

You couldn't make this shit up

RoyalCorgi · 18/11/2022 14:34

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 18/11/2022 13:54

it’s just this assumption that a cisgender outcome is better than a trans outcome

It's funny what language does to people. When you say "trans outcome" then "cisgender outcome" sounds exactly the same. Harmless and neutral and vague. When you say "double mastectomy / orchidectomy" then of course everyone assumes the "cisgender outcome" is better because when wouldn't it be? So of course she didn't say that. And the interviewer didn't ask.

That's the power of euphemism.

This is absolutely right, and I think one of the unfortunate things about our historic tendency to be nice and kind and politically correct is that we haven't fought enough against having this mangled language imposed on us. So we've used "trans woman" to refer to a male person, and we've accepted using incorrectly-sexed pronouns. And then we've gone along with "gender reassignment surgery" or "top surgery" when what we mean is teenage boys having their penis and testicles cut off and teenage girls having double mastectomies. When you use accurate language, people can see how grotesque it all is.

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2022 14:51

Boiledbeetle · 17/11/2022 18:40

But we did an enhanced DBS [Disclosure and Barring Service check], we did some general top-level Google and internet searches. We did a social media search [and it] didn’t come up.

it this bit that did it for me SG talking about the guy who was into children and defended paedophiles. You can hear the petulance in her voice

I mean seriously a children's charity HAS TO DO BETTER. it only takes a quick Google to find all sorts of unsuitable stuff that that particular gentleman was writing about. He want exactly hiding his thoughts and feelings.

One of the issues with Breslow was his appointment was not made public properly.

His name was hidden away and only appeared on the Charity Commission Website.

Breslow's name was only there for people who actively went looking. So this limited the ability for public accountability. Remember there are anonymous Trustees for Mermaids. Being open about who is responsible and who has a vested interest into a children's charity should be a basic minimum, precisely for public accountability.

I've been trying to find it, with no joy, but I swear there was a thread on MN about Breslow's paper BEFORE his appointment to Mermaids. It was short with only a couple of posts, and it largely went unnoticed at the time, but it got pointed out after the fact. It was quite startling which is why I remember it. May have been Jan or Feb.

Someone was paying attention to what was happening in the gender academic world even if Mermaids weren't.

(The 'we weren't aware' exuse is piss poor because its the same as 'we can't be arsed to read the Cass Review' - afterall ignorance isn't a valid defence).

On that note, its worth keeping in mind that Breslow is on sabbactical until Jan 2023. I am curious about what plans are for Breslow to return to work after Christmas. I hope someone is paying attention to that one, and remembers to check.

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2022 14:53

Also worth remembering:

”It is the overall responsibility of the CEO, Susie Green, on behalf of the Safeguarding Lead to ensure that all necessary measures are in place to safeguard children.”

If Green admits procedures weren't/aren't up to scratch she could be the one liable. So she will never say differently. That can only be discredited in a court of law at this point I think.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 18/11/2022 14:58

Does it just mean - growing up into the adult versions of the body we were born with??

Exactly. And more, a "cisgender outcome" presumably means finding ways to feel comfortable growing up into the adult version of the body you were born into.

So why would anyone not prefer that?

Except perhaps for someone who chose "a transgender outcome" for her own child at a very early age and needs the comfort of dragging others with her.

Boiledbeetle · 18/11/2022 15:02

BoreOfWhabylon · 18/11/2022 12:57

The farticle also fails to mention the inexplicable sudden departure of Darren Mew, formerly MM's Digital Engagement Manager.
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4652666-mermaids-charity-paedophile-porn-photos-scandal-in-the-press?reply=120685158
www.spiked-online.com/2022/10/13/why-the-trans-lobby-loves-censorship/

I successfully turned a neighbour to the "dark side" by showing her the delightful Darren Mews penis montage this morning. Her face was a picture. Her response contained many expletives. I

They do our work for us!

BoreOfWhabylon · 18/11/2022 15:08
Grin
TheGreatATuin · 18/11/2022 15:10

To add to the things that weren't mentioned, Susie Green has put her name to the latest WPATH standards, which includes removing age restrictions for surgeries and hormones, and also includes a large chapter on eunuchs.
I'd very much like to see the Guardian cover that. Or anyone really.

ArabellaScott · 18/11/2022 15:13

Ah, wee Darren and his plethora of penises. And breasts, iirc. A veritable buffet of bits. A kaleidoscope of cocks. A gallimaufry of goolies. A smorgasboard of sausages.

Boiledbeetle · 18/11/2022 15:19

ArabellaScott · 18/11/2022 15:13

Ah, wee Darren and his plethora of penises. And breasts, iirc. A veritable buffet of bits. A kaleidoscope of cocks. A gallimaufry of goolies. A smorgasboard of sausages.

I've got it stored in my photos on my tablet. I show it to everyone who crosses my threshold whilst explaining he worked for a children's charity. It's the gift that just keeps on giving.

If I'm ever arrested and my electronics seized that will be a fun conversation!

Boiledbeetle · 18/11/2022 15:24

I would really hate to reside in SGs head, it must be torture the way she has to deny the reality of things all the time so as to minimise the damage she did to her child.

When it does finally come crashing down on her what she actually did I don't think she's going to cope with it well.

But all that pales in comparison to what her child will have to go through forever because of their parents decisions. I hope for their sake everything has turned out well, but I suspect the long term effects will kick in at some point.

RoyalCorgi · 18/11/2022 16:02

I've been trying to find it, with no joy, but I swear there was a thread on MN about Breslow's paper BEFORE his appointment to Mermaids. It was short with only a couple of posts, and it largely went unnoticed at the time, but it got pointed out after the fact. It was quite startling which is why I remember it. May have been Jan or Feb.

Here you go:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4397999-LSE-Gender-Studies-department-comes-unstuck-again

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 18/11/2022 16:14

Aha. So if SG would only hold her nose and look at MN from time to time, she could have saved herself a lot of grief. 🙄

TheBiologyStupid · 18/11/2022 16:35

RoyalCorgi · 18/11/2022 16:02

I've been trying to find it, with no joy, but I swear there was a thread on MN about Breslow's paper BEFORE his appointment to Mermaids. It was short with only a couple of posts, and it largely went unnoticed at the time, but it got pointed out after the fact. It was quite startling which is why I remember it. May have been Jan or Feb.

Here you go:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4397999-LSE-Gender-Studies-department-comes-unstuck-again

Thanks, Corgi. I see that Breslow didn't have the decency to reply to Maya's second comment below his rather shoddy piece about her EAT judgement that is linked to by the OP.

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2022 16:48

RoyalCorgi · 18/11/2022 16:02

I've been trying to find it, with no joy, but I swear there was a thread on MN about Breslow's paper BEFORE his appointment to Mermaids. It was short with only a couple of posts, and it largely went unnoticed at the time, but it got pointed out after the fact. It was quite startling which is why I remember it. May have been Jan or Feb.

Here you go:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4397999-LSE-Gender-Studies-department-comes-unstuck-again

Thanks. I think that was it. I was beginning to think I was going nutty.

The LSE blog mentioned on that thread (which is dated) mentions his academic work in detail in his LSE professional bio at the end:
Dr Jacob Breslow is Assistant Professor of Sexuality and Gender at the LSE Department of Gender Studies. He is author of Ambivalent Childhoods: Speculative Futures and the Psychic Life of the Child (University of Minnesota Press, 2021), which brings together critical race, trans, feminist, queer, critical migration, and psychoanalytic theories to explore the role of childhood in shaping and challenging the disposability of young black life, the steadfastness of the gender binary, the queer life of children’s desires, and the precarious status of migrants. His wider research is published in Feminist Theory (forthcoming), Comparative American Studies (2020), American Quarterly (2019), Porn Studies (2018), and Transgender Studies Quarterly (2017).

Now lets look at his actual profile on LSE's website as of today. Its still similar.

www.lse.ac.uk/gender/people-profiles/faculty/jacob-breslow

My primary area of research is on contemporary U.S. social justice movements, and the ways in which the idea of childhood operates within and against them. Specifically, this work interrogates and thinks with Black Lives Matter, transfeminism, queer youth activism, and anti-deportation movements. My monograph on this research, titled Ambivalent Childhoods: Speculative Futures and the Psychic Life of the Child was published in 2021 by the University of Minnesota Press. It brings together critical race, trans, feminist, queer, critical migration, and psychoanalytic theories to explore the role of childhood in shaping and challenging the disposability of young black life, the steadfastness of the gender binary, the queer life of children’s desires, and the precarious status of migrants. Through an engagement with “the psychic life of the child” it combines theoretical discussions of childhood, blackness, transfeminism, and deportability with critical readings of films, narrative, images, and social justice movements. Beyond Ambivalent Childhoods, my research in this area is published with Feminist Theory (forthcoming), American Quarterly (2019), and Transgender Studies Quarterly (2017).

My second line of research is on transnational and local sexual politics, and the conceptual and lived effects of ameliorating sexual harms. This is a prison abolitionist project that seeks to disrupt the tendency to simply displace ‘unwanted’ sexual content, or sexual subjects, to an unseen ‘elsewhere,’ as if that displacement might render the difficulties of troubling sexualities resolved. In this body of work, I have written on social media’s outsourcing of content moderation and the production of the digital life of coloniality for Porn Studies (2018); and on the relationship between #MeToo and homonationalism for Comparative American Studies (2020). I am currently working with Emma Spruce (University of Liverpool) on a themed issue for Gender, Place & Culture titled Queer and Trans Geographies of Accommodation and Displacement, which combines analyses of local and everyday acts of making or denying spaces for queer subjects, with examinations of the political and psychic landscapes of these spatial politics. My contribution to this issue is a piece of research that brings together queer geographies with carceral geographies.

Now imagine you are a children's charity. The words 'queer life of children's desires' and 'Porn Studies', should encourage you to perhaps look a bit closer rather than just accepting that 'we relied on the fact that he must be ok cos he worked for a university with a good reputation' as a defence. The subject matter might be an area of contention if you are looking at this person as an appropriate person for a children's charity.

Porn Studies? Yes lets get a trustee on board who writes about porn when we know there's a shed load of contentious stuff around your charity and already suggestions of multiple safegarding failures before June 2022. And you know people are continually scrutinising your charity. To not ask enough questions and to think it was a good idea is a failure of duty of care. Of course some fucker is going to pick up on that eventually, (especially considering Mermaids already had the attitude that everyone was out to get them). Your response should be to make sure they are squeaky clean otherwise you are going to have a pile more questions to answer.

So why didn't Susie?

This.Is.Not.Hard.To.Google.And.Find.

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2022 16:49

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 18/11/2022 16:14

Aha. So if SG would only hold her nose and look at MN from time to time, she could have saved herself a lot of grief. 🙄

You mean if SG paid attention to public concerns and addressed issues about accountability properly, she'd actually not be the subject of multiple threads on MN...

Swipe left for the next trending thread