Gay Men's Network response to CPS Rape by deception consultation

[DennisNoelKavanaghOffTwitter]

Hope it's ok to start a thread here, just wanted to bring some prominence to our response which is now publicly available:

The Gay Men's Network has responded to the CPS consultation on sex crimes involving deceptions as to biological sex. In it, we warn of Institutional ideological capture, victim blaming and inequality before the law

Read our full response here (first link in letters and responses)

We include in our response a draft email for anyone who wants to write in supporting our submission at pages 34-35. If you wish to adapt the law or arguments in the response please feel completely free to do so.

Details on how to respond to the consultation are available at the CPS website here - it closes 19th December 2022.

If you support our work advocating for the interests of homosexual males, please consider donating, our work requires infrastructure and with more donations we can make more of a difference.

Stay tuned for the GMN response to the NHS Interim Service Specs consultation and a public communication on the Equal Treatment Benchbook among our other projects

Thank you Dennis. This is an important and coherent piece of work.

@LaughingPriest "But I'm not sure that's the argument."

It's not. Just an observation of mine that I think highlights some of the absurdity here - that if they were consistent it leads to nonsense.

@nilsmousehammer That's an excellent post that really highlights how horrific the mindset is that underlies this.

Hi everyone. I'm in a frustrating position in that my laptop seems to be blocking access to Gay Men's Network. I can access it on my phone, but I've probably got some parental controls on my laptop, I didn't put them there, it could be via Windows security or via my anti virus (McAfee) as I've tried 2 different browsers. Anyone else had this problem and know how to set it to allow access to GMN?

It would be easier to complete the CPS response with the GMN response on my laptop. (hard to read on my phone).

Also @DennisNoelKavanaghOffTwitter do you recommend that we respond to the consultation or just send in an email stating we agree with and support your response? Thanks :D

Can you see this direct link?

Response to the Crown Prosecution Service consultation:
static1.squarespace.com/static/6200252604e9795287de2ada/t/636a7c64ebf018723719f151/1667923047685/CPS_Response_Branded.pdf

Brilliant, thank you @Thelnebriati

Also @DennisNoelKavanaghOffTwitter do you recommend that we respond to the consultation or just send in an email stating we agree with and support your response? Thanks :D

I was wondering about this, too. To what extent does reiterating a powerful response reinforce it in this type of consultation? Doesn't the powerful response get judged on its own merits, or does repetition of it help?

Completely up to you - my own instinct (and it's no more than that) is the more responses the better - we've included a generic draft support email as Annex 1 to the document at Page 34-35 if people are pushed for time.

'Stealth' - the act of sex through concealing identity - is illegal and considered rape in British law

Thanks, Dennis - in that case I'll put in my own response based on the draft support email.

Since we’re going down this rabbit hole, it is useful to consider where it leads to.

In 2010 an Israeli court convicted and imprisoned a Palestinian man for rape by deception because the Jewish ‘victim’ discovered that the man was a Muslim after they had finished their consensual sexual activity.

ABC News story

This isn’t really the same thing at all.

This is really important work, particularly for younger adults/older teenagers.

My older teenage DS said there have been some worrying instances in his experience of ‘stealth’ from TW to young men in his circles. A TW they know targeted one of their male friends, who they know does not want relations with men, but waited until the guy was really drunk, targeted him, and was intimate by stealth as their friend clearly thought he was a biological woman. DS said it’s really messed with their friends head but don’t feel that they can do anything about it.

@landOFconfusion ???! Way off this is about deception of sexual biological attraction. Not a rabbit hole - which you seem to have taken some time to seek out and find…

Wtf this is rape

You really can’t see the difference here? You can’t see the difference between the relevance of biological sex to consenting to sexual activity and personal beliefs on world views?

You do realise that you are basically comparing sexual orientation to a choice/ an opinion?. You do realise that gays and lesbians have been oppressed through history by being told their orientation is a choice they can change and they are to stigmatized and derided if they don’t?

But thanks for teasing out another layer of the homophobic views underpinning the CPS document.

Are we seriously going to have to discuss why conning someone into sex in the belief that they are of the sex you consent to have sex with, is the same as finding later that someone has a belief system you don't like?

Fgs. Get a bloody grip. If you've got a real argument, bring it. Otherwise, you're just trying to justify sexual assault as being ok so long as the perpetrator is TQ+. And fuck off with that. Sex by deception is a crime: the personal chosen identity names of the perpetrator is absolutely bloody irrelevant.

Phew, done. That took me ages. I tried to give my own layperson's view of things but also stated that I give my support to the response by the Gay Men's Network.

Hey all,

Just to say Fair Play for Women have also responded and their paper is available here:

fairplayforwomen.com/sex-by-deception-respond-to-the-cps-consultation/?fbclid=IwAR1s4mxceuzq0jRNOtdRdSWL6wnhyGs3Aoz8AU7l5koC2sOdfu3zsmEszp4

Of course for lesbians there is the added risk that a man presenting as a woman might cause her to become pregnant in the course of deceptive sexual activity.

In the linked statement I was unclear as to why the objection to 'sex assigned at birth'

Thank you for bringing this issue to attention here. It's not an area I was aware of really, until now.

Yes, indeed.

Great! Finally managed to read it!
What an incredible, perfect response to such a shocking document. Thanks so much @DennisNoelKavanaghOffTwitter and @Thelnebriati for posting the link

Bumping as this closes on the 19th.
Got to make a concerted effort over the weekend.

Bumping again. I've just sent my response and used a combination of the Gay Men's Network guidance and that from Sex Matters to respond.

sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/CPS-deception-as-to-gender.pdf

It's really important to submit if you can, even just brief responses will count in the numbers.

The deadline in Monday 19th!

I think this response to the CPS and what you have written about ‘institutional capture’ is wonderful, and very clearly written.

It comes as a wave of relief that men have written this. It is outlines the same concerns women have been talking about but called terfs and transphobes for.

Often men seem to wipe their hands of women’s concerns over this ideology as it doesn’t seem to concern them. What you have written could convince them to listen.