Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 4

[nauticant]

UPDATE: a transcript of the proceedings has been published and can be found here: lgballiance.org.uk/tribunal-transcript/

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony was heard from 12 to 15 September, and then, following a break, closing submissions are taking place on 7 and 8 November.

[This paragraph is probaby now redundant] To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from www.twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4633653-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chamber-thread-3?page=31&reply=121335177
Thread 4: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request in order to include the most up to date information.

This is very good indeed - that challenges to CC decisions are a matter for the government, and not a tribunal.

These are such obvious points he’s making! So why didn’t Mermaids think of them? Is the point of this case to cause disruption and hassle, not necessarily to win?

I wonder whose idea this case was. If Stonewall and Mermaids were initially in it together does that mean that Mermaids are not the brains behind this? Are they being used?

Maugham?

does that mean that Mermaids are not the brains behind this?

💅i couldn't possibly comment

I've come to the conclusion that it's all to try and drain funds. So things drag, drag, drag on, and eventually get dropped, and then they win by default.

The CC counsel has noted the negative effect of a process like this in a young charity - they can do any work while all their money is going on this

Will he speak again after the LGBA counsel?

IS wraps up, some questions from the bench.

Round of applause for the man with logic and common sense. 👏

Can they award all the costs against mermaids? I'd like to see them having to pay for not only their own costs, but also the CC and LGBA.

That sounded a wee bit desperate from the mermaids people

Yes, the CC has made LGBA's argument for them in the main

AR: if we start at 10am, with no problems I should be done by lunchtime.

Done for the afternoon, back tomorrow.

That question from the bench was nuts wasn't it? That there is no agreed definition of what lesbian, gay and bisexual means so what if LGB alliance starts serving people that are trans but call themselves LG or B and what would happen then?

My head was 🤯

What a contrast between Mr Gibbon and Mr Steele. The former muffled on incomprehensibly for hours before getting to the point. The latter was clear, concise and admirably to the point. Well done MR Steele.

Oh god, I hope not.

IS was very good, clear concise and not sopheric.

Did anyone bring up (or were they even allowed to) the fact that Mermaids themselves are under scrutiny?

I've been out in the actual garden and properly crying at bundlejuice.

Thank goodness the CC guy is calm and measured and logical.

No but I'd be quaking if Mr Steele was giving them legal advice on that.

written objects talk of lesbian gay and bisexual. But if there is a difference about what those words mean? Does that raise the necessary doubt of public benefit?

judge’s question as per TT.

I know that’s the Mermaids argument he’s asking about, but how does it make sense? Language has been colonised, but that doesn’t mean same sex attracted people aren’t worthy of a charity that benefits them.

IS was great. Roll on LGB Alliance submissions tomorrow.

I'm watching a woman clear up the courtroom and 3 people are still in the lobby. This should be the closing credits backdrop.

surely its to the LGBA set up to Destry MM it is the other way round

Delighted to hear Hvaldimir is getting some love! He could be a wee mascot for this case. I'll fling him a tenner when if LGBA win.

I’ve only scanned very quickly but seems Mermaids barrister is complaining LGBA says gender is construct.

Every definition I can find of gender including WHO describes it as social construct.

What is Mermaids own definition of gender?