Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 4

[nauticant]

UPDATE: a transcript of the proceedings has been published and can be found here: lgballiance.org.uk/tribunal-transcript/

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony was heard from 12 to 15 September, and then, following a break, closing submissions are taking place on 7 and 8 November.

[This paragraph is probaby now redundant] To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from www.twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4633653-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chamber-thread-3?page=31&reply=121335177
Thread 4: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request in order to include the most up to date information.

Beetlejuice?

Bundlejuice

Snort

During the Mermaid guy's interminable drone, I would have welcomed an icy comment from the judge about the deficiency of the bundle. 😩

Very good point here. Two institutions with differing views can both be charities.

Of course they can, sad that it needs to be pointed out.

CC talking an awful lot ofcommon sense here.

He seems to be removing mermaids arguments quite easily - and I know he's not on one side or the other but their case is so weak I think he has no option

Yes they are, this must be very confusing for mermaids as they are not fast friends with common sense.

"The public benefit is not 'my views are right your views are wrong', but the public discourse and debate that follows from those different views"

I paraphrase a bit but the Cc seems v wise here

The deeper I get into this the more it feels like a massive conspiracy, but who by and what for? Why did Stonewall make the umbrella so big that pretty much anyone who isn't either Barbie or GI Joe is trans?

Never assign mendacity to that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

All the people doing this think they are the goodies. A combination of never speaking to anyone who challenges their views, the endorphin rush of fighting the good fight and large salaries predicated on their job being a Good Thing combine to convince them of of their rectitude.

If you think you are saving someone's immortal soul then burning witches is the kind thing to do.

Ooh, your examples from earlier @foodfiend Brava!

Mermaids probably currently seething at how transphobic the CC is and the law is and common sense is.

Like his thinly veiled point about public schools being challenged as charities would not be in the tribunal's remit and also, to paraphrase, what an absolute shitshow would ensue if this ruling opened the floodgates to allow this.

I like this chap's manner - he seems much clearer to understand

I also likes how he says he's sure mermaids will not be claiming certain things - when we all know they are 😂

what an absolute shitshow would ensue if this ruling opened the floodgates to allow this

Especially because the attack mounted by Mermaids isn't against LGBA's application to become registered but that the registration that was a done deal in the past should never have happened, so this hearing in effectively a rehearing of the decision-making process of the CC. If third party challenges can reach into the past in this way, they can possibly go after any charity, whenever it was registered.

This is good - the public benefit is in the debate itself.

Oh, he mentioned the importance of debate! Which is exactly what Mermaids are trying to shut down.

I like his point that having charities with divergent views encourages debate which is good for broader society.

Gosh he's taking no prisoners is he

I like the sound of this!

And your point from about four mins ago nauticant 👏

Naut - exactly. The ruling class would not like a challenge to their public school system AT ALL.

Hvaldimir just got a little boost from me.
They're probably wondering why there's suddenly a little random rush of donations from women in the UK 😂